TheSamba.com :: View topic - Front torsion leafs question..............

Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:40 pm

Recently bought an old dune buggy, Manx clone, and I want to soften the front suspension some. I recall that, in years gone by, the front leafs would be removed, with a couple being cut away, leaving the center and ends for reattachment reasons.

What is the best/recommended method these days to soften up the front end ride; trim the leafs, add adjusters, or both?

Thanks in advance for the info.

Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:03 pm

Install an adjuster in on of the beams and adjust it to reduce the tension on that particular spring pack and the buggy will ride smoother.

Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:35 pm

What is the pressure in your tires?

Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:43 pm

In a 1200lb. buggy, the upper trailing arms of your buggy are probably sitting on the snubbers now. If you install adjusters and crank more preload on one set of leaves than on the other to produce a "progressive" spring rate, the upper trailing arms will probably just press harder against the snubbers and the suspension will be just as stiff as stock.

For it to work, you'd have to remove the snubbers. You could just try removing the rubber cones. It will allow your suspension to rebound more (unload) and should soften your ride(and increase ground clearance). If the improvement is noticable, then you might want to go ahead and cut the snubber horns off.

You also only want to use plain hydraulic shocks, no coil overs, no gas shocks. Stay with stock trailing arm bushings/bearings too. They can be properly greased and will stay free and won't seize up like polyurethane when they get full of water and dirt. If you still have the stock anti-sway bar, remove it. You can also easily add caster shims which will improve straight line stability, slightly increase ground clearance and also angle the trailing arms down more, so they will first deflect back (before they go up) when you hit a sudden bump.

Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:56 pm

Bruce Meyers recomends stock shocks that you drill & drain the oil out & replace the oil with light machine oil. This will soften the ride quite a bit.

Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:06 am

I had a bent bj beam and I removed all the half leaves in it. I used all those half leaves in place of some of my solid leaves, it worked for me. If I ever want ot stiffen it up I can add a solid leave or two.

Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:23 am

OK, so the adjusters are the recommeded way to go. I would prefer a more soft ride, without any added height. The trailing arm is resting on the snubber now at full extention. Tire pressure is 20 lbs now, and I will be making wheel & tire changes in the future.

I am going to rechassis the buggy, with a '66 model, and will install the front adjusters when I do that. Any thoughts on the installation of one of the rear adjusters at the same time, or just reset the rear bars to level the camber? This will be a street bugy with emphasis on handling and comfortable operation.

Headed off to the SEVWA event at Piedmont Dragway to find a carb rebuild kit and maybe those adjusters too.

Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:09 am

You didn't say it was just going to be a street buggy, then there's no need to install adjusters unless you want to raise and lower the front suspension at various times. Just remove one full set of leaves and replace them with a fomula Vee anti-sway bar ($65). It will give you the soft ride and flat handling you want. 66 front suspensions(ball joint) don't have snubbers so you don't have to remove it. Definitely add a caster shim though.

http://www.campbellmotorsport.com/products.htm

After market rear torsion adjusters just make it easier to change the rear torsion setting. If you're not planning on frequently changing the rear setting you don't need them. The asian ones break too. A slight negative camber(wheels in at top) will actually give better steet handling than neutral or positive. Using both the inner and outer splines will give plenty of adjustment.

Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:19 am

A good combination for adjusting ride stiffness and ride height would be to remove the 1/2 width leaves (the 6 small ones) from spring pack leaving just the 5 or so full width springs (in both spring packs) and adding adjusters in beams. I have done this on both my buggies and have luxury of low ride height along with soft ride... Also keep tire pressure lower, I run about 16-18 psi in tires and it softens ride even more and does not hurt handling on street.

Also done this on my auto cross buggy for keeping car low and improved handling for competition.

Dale

Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:43 pm

With one adjuster, you can reduce the tension on one torsion pack to the point that the suspension drops to the to the same ride height as the stock Beetle and lock it down. It will ride as soft as a stock bug.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:06 am

BL3Manx wrote: In a 1200lb. buggy, the upper trailing arms of your buggy are probably sitting on the snubbers now. If you install adjusters and crank more preload on one set of leaves than on the other to produce a "progressive" spring rate, the upper trailing arms will probably just press harder against the snubbers and the suspension will be just as stiff as stock.

For it to work, you'd have to remove the snubbers....

Not so. I have adjusters on both tubes and I can easily set the height anywhere I want and can slack one adjuster off to soften the ride if desired. I think adjusters are the way to go, being able to set the ride height/spring rate is preferable to modifying the leaves in hopes of getting it right.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:24 am

"being able to set the ride height/spring rate is preferable to modifying the leaves in hopes of getting it right."

Having spent quite a bit of time over the years playing with torsion stacks, I can vouch for the above statement! I replaced solid leaves with splits, replaced more solid leaves with splits, eventually went back to all stock (but worn) leaves. It sits good now, but what a lot of work!

If I could go back in time and give myself just one hint while I was building my buggy, it would be to install adjusters in the front beam and also in the center section of the rear torsion housing. Adjusters would have saved me a TON of trial and error!

Lee

Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:18 am

CrashedAgain wrote: BL3Manx wrote: In a 1200lb. buggy, the upper trailing arms of your buggy are probably sitting on the snubbers now. If you install adjusters and crank more preload on one set of leaves than on the other to produce a "progressive" spring rate, the upper trailing arms will probably just press harder against the snubbers and the suspension will be just as stiff as stock.

For it to work, you'd have to remove the snubbers....

Not so. I have adjusters on both tubes and I can easily set the height anywhere I want and can slack one adjuster off to soften the ride if desired. I think adjusters are the way to go, being able to set the ride height/spring rate is preferable to modifying the leaves in hopes of getting it right.

Actually it is so, on the type of beam I was talking about. There are two types of adjustable beams you can buy, the type that are raised for added off-road ground clearance, and the type that are lowered, (for appearance?). The original post didn't specify that he only intended to use the buggy on the street.

What I described is what you get with an adjustable beam that can only be raised above the stock height. With that kind of adjustable beam in its lowest setting, the torsion packs are at the stock position and with a 1200# buggy, the upper arms are resting against the top of the snubbers. The only adjustment from stock on a raised beam is up.

I still think if I was going to lower the front of a buggy, I'd just replace the upper set of leaves with a formula Vee anti-sway bar. It costs $65 vs. $350 for an adjustable beam, works better than the stock anti-sway bar, weighs less, is easier to install and is totally unseen in use.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:55 am

Link pin adjusters are $25.00 and take a couple hours to install.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:22 am

I used Bugpack adjusters (Bugpack item #6508).

They are not easy to install...you have to cut the beam and weld them in...but they can be set to any position you want. Mine are set so that the centre of travel for the adjuster screw is about 1/2" lower than stock which gives more or less stock ride height with the lightened front end.

Bugpack also sells beams with the adjusters already installed but they are $$$ and I can weld.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:29 am

lostinbaja wrote: Link pin adjusters are $25.00 and take a couple hours to install.

Link pin and ball joint adjusters are the same, either the avis type or the threaded type. I think a couple hours is a little optimistic. Some buggy owners have the equipment and skill to cut the center out of their front beams to install a threaded adjuster and then produce a butt weld to hold the two sides of their front suspension together, that is of adequate quality that they'd be willing to trust their and their family's safety on.

If you can, my hat is off to you. I usually just tack that kind of work together and then take it to a certified welder to be finished. For both the tubes of a front beam, that would mean two trips, because you should only replace one at a time.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:47 pm

The Gene Berg avis adjusters are well worth the money and only take about an hour or two (each) to install and are nearly indestructible. I'd stay away from an avis adjuster that has an alloy adjuster plate like some of the cheaper kits come with.

I looked at others and either involved too much cutting and welding.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:50 pm

By far the best way to lower a Manx is to put a select-a-drop adjuster system on it. There is not enough weight on the front of a Manx to push the front end down. I have tried all the ways available. I found the select-a-drop works best for lowering. The adjusters work best for raising. The sway a way adjusters are the best quality. For heavy off road the Avis adjusters tend to slip & I prefer the sway a way style. It just depends on what you intend to do with the Manx.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:52 pm

Another thing not to overlook is the shocks. Most FG buggies have shocks that are way too stiff. Bruce Meyers has a procedure for thinning the oil in stock hydraulic shocks. I run Fox Shox all the way around, with the fronts valved EXTREMELY SOFT + Zero Weight oil. Having a set of good used stock torsion leaves and soft shocks helps keep the nose of my buggy off the rocks while maintaining a supple ride.

Lee

Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:02 am

Bought a pair of the Bugpack adjusters on Sunday, from Bugstuff at the SEVWA drag race. Plans are to get my buddy, who is skilled in race car fab, to assist me in fitting and welding them into the front beams.

Thanks for everyone who has offered insight and suggestions. I am replacing the 55-56 chassis with a 66 chassis during the rebuild.