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Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:16 pm

I have a chance to get a Porsche 912 motor and transaxle for a song. I have heard that the transaxle (5-speed) will bolt right in with no problems. A couple of questions. Is the 912 transaxle as reliable as a stock IRS? Will it fit like I've heard? Should I ask these questions in the 912 forum? I like the idea of a 1600DP, dual baby Dells and a 5 speed. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:57 pm

74Ghia wrote: I have heard that the transaxle (5-speed) will bolt right in with no problems.
You heard wrong.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:06 am

When Ryan Holmboe used to have his '73 Ghia, he stuffed a Porsche 912 engine & transaxle with the assistance of Richard Troy (KGCNA founder):
Here is Ryan's website for what he had to tackle to install the Porsche drivetrain - http://www.bayarea.net/~diddler/black.htm

Hope this helps out.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:56 am

Banzai KG wrote: When Ryan Holmboe used to have his '73 Ghia, he stuffed a Porsche 912 engine & transaxle with the assistance of Richard Troy (KGCNA founder):
Here is Ryan's website for what he had to tackle to install the Porsche drivetrain - http://www.bayarea.net/~diddler/black.htm

Hope this helps out.
Yes, he installed a 912 engine. There's a lot of good detail on these pages about how to set up the linkages, etc.

No, he did NOT install a 901/902 transaxle. He kept the stock VW transaxle. I was on RT's Karmann Ghia email list when this was all happening and I remember it pretty well - it gave me a lot of inspiration. =P~ I certainly don't see anything on his web pages about doing a transaxle swap.

Putting a 901/902 transaxle into a Type I isn't impossible, but it's not "bolt-up" either. You have to fabricate some sort of shift-end mount. The bell housing end isn't too bad but you'll probably have to trim a bit off the trans case to mate it up. You'll probably need a big hammer to clearance the left side trans fork on the chassis for the clutch lever. The shift rod comes out of the trans lower than on a Type I trans so you'll have to cut a new access hole in the back of the center tube. For the shift linkage you'll need the 5 speed shifter from an appropriate vintage 911/912/914, the shifter section of tunnel from the P-car to graft into the Type I center tube, and the shift rod which will need to have its length modified. I've heard rumor that there's a drop-in shifter kit somewhere for this conversion but I've yet to find it. I hope I can, I'm planning to do this on a '69 Beetle chassis for a 911S trans and 912 engine, followed by my '57 oval window body... :twisted:

Keith Seume's "VW Beetle Performance Handbook" has a short section that gives a bit of information and pictures on how to do this. There's not a lot of info in there, but it's the best single source I've found on how to stuff this transaxle under a Type I (including here :( ).

BTW, not all 901/902 transmissions were 5 speeds. There were 4 speed versions as well. Make sure the trans really is a 5 speed before going through all this work. IMO it's not worth it for the 4 speed version, it's that extra gear that should make all the work worthwhile.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:44 am

With all of the work you've done to that Ghia, Allen, I would advise against the 912 engine transplant. Build yourself a 1776 for the Ghia and pocket all of the money you would be spending (in the future) to maintain the Porsche engine. The 1776 will be plenty reliable and provide much more power than the 912.

Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:19 am

A properly sorted 912 engine is little or no more expensive to maintain than a Type I engine, nor is it any more unreliable.

If the 912 needs to be rebuilt, that's a whole different story. It will be a lot less money to build a hot Type I engine unless you go really exotic, or the 912 just needs a little top end work.

A stock 912 engine will turn ~100 hp and not that much modification is needed to get it to ~125 hp. You may be able to get more out of a 1776 Type I depending on the build, but I'm not sure I'd quantify it as "much more power."

Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:02 am

Thanks for the link Banzai KG. I'll more than likely pass on the 912 motor and tranny. Like Icy mentioned, I'm ALMOST ready to put my Ghia on the roadand the work required for the Porsche equipment etc is going a few steps backward. I was just interested in the 5-speed. I know a guy looking for a 914 motor and tranny and perhaps he'll be interested. Now if my back yard will drain so I don't have to tread water while working on her, I'll bleed the brakes, install the tank, and put in the carpet and seats and be ready for her first test drive. Still have water 5 inches deep in the back yard. :(

Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:18 pm

denizen224 wrote: A stock 912 engine will turn ~100 hp and not that much modification is needed to get it to ~125 hp.
A stock 912 engine is 90hp...... when new. Less when 40 years old.
To get 125hp requires $$$$. For far less $ you can make a LOT more hp out of a VW engine.

Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:21 pm

Bruce wrote: denizen224 wrote: A stock 912 engine will turn ~100 hp and not that much modification is needed to get it to ~125 hp.
A stock 912 engine is 90hp...... when new. Less when 40 years old.
To get 125hp requires $$$$. For far less $ you can make a LOT more hp out of a VW engine.
A stock 912 engine was rated at 90 gross hp, which is probably only 75 net crank hp. SAE net hp didn't come into being until 1973. That's the primary reason why the hp rating on the 34 PICT-3 carburated 1600 dual port fell from 60 hp to 48 hp even though nothing was changed.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:23 am

Geez, talk about thread drift... :roll:

Yeah, there are a lot of different ways to quantify hp. The numbers I was throwing out were SAE (107/102 SAE hp for an SC/912 when new, 95/90 DIN - I didn't think the 912 was derated that much from the SC :oops: ) since that's what most engine builders speak in these days and sure, it's because they look more impressive. :wink: If you have somebody build you a 1776 I'm sure they'll quote you SAE hp numbers for what you'll be getting. Just so long as you're lining up apples and apples when making your comparisons...

Allen, your friend looking for a 914 trans probably won't want a 912. They're almost the same but not quite. In addition to flipping the ring gear he'll have to also swap out the nosecone, IIRC. And then it'd be a tail shift, I'd try to hold out for a side shift 914 trans. The shifting is sooooo much better in the side shift 914s that I've driven over the tail shifts, including conversions.

Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:22 am

denizen224 wrote: Yeah, there are a lot of different ways to quantify hp. The numbers I was throwing out were SAE (107/102 SAE hp for an SC/912 when new, 95/90 DIN - I didn't think the 912 was derated that much from the SC :oops: ) since that's what most engine builders speak in these days and sure, it's because they look more impressive. :wink: If you have somebody build you a 1776 I'm sure they'll quote you SAE hp numbers for what you'll be getting. Just so long as you're lining up apples and apples when making your comparisons...
Current hp ratings are SAE net, so it's not apples to apples comparing SAE gross to SAE net. SAE gross is about 20% exaggerated over SAE net, hence the huge hp figures for 60s muscle cars and the resultant crash in hp in 1973. Some of that crash was due to smog controls, but most of it was due to changing from SAE gross to SAE net hp.

That 102 hp was SAE gross hp, so I guess the DIN rating, which I think was 86 hp, would be more like SAE net. However, most 912s I know are running the aftermarket "1750 cc" 86 mm big bore kits, which I believe actually create a 1720 cc. That bump in displacement would likely yield some increase from the 86 hp DIN/SAE net figure, so I'd say 90-95 SAE net hp.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:06 am

speaking of motor/trans swaps... a buddy of mine is in the process of transplanting the motor and trans of a mitsu EVO into his '73 MGB. he wants to disable the front drive portion and retain rear wheel drive. that EVO motor is frickin' tiny, so it'll definitely fit in his car. i think he's gonna die, but it'll be fun to watch. if he doesn't kill himself with it, i might seriously consider something similar for my '73 ghia coupe. anyone ever hear of anyone doing that kinda lunacy to a ghia? it'd seriously blow away the HP rating for a 912.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:29 am

NiccoHel wrote: speaking of motor/trans swaps... a buddy of mine is in the process of transplanting the motor and trans of a mitsu EVO into his '73 MGB. he wants to disable the front drive portion and retain rear wheel drive. that EVO motor is frickin' tiny, so it'll definitely fit in his car. i think he's gonna die, but it'll be fun to watch. if he doesn't kill himself with it, i might seriously consider something similar for my '73 ghia coupe. anyone ever hear of anyone doing that kinda lunacy to a ghia? it'd seriously blow away the HP rating for a 912.

HP and going fast is fine, but first, be concerned with how you're going to be able to stop.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:02 pm

Icy wrote: NiccoHel wrote: speaking of motor/trans swaps... a buddy of mine is in the process of transplanting the motor and trans of a mitsu EVO into his '73 MGB. he wants to disable the front drive portion and retain rear wheel drive. that EVO motor is frickin' tiny, so it'll definitely fit in his car. i think he's gonna die, but it'll be fun to watch. if he doesn't kill himself with it, i might seriously consider something similar for my '73 ghia coupe. anyone ever hear of anyone doing that kinda lunacy to a ghia? it'd seriously blow away the HP rating for a 912.

HP and going fast is fine, but first, be concerned with how you're going to be able to stop.

stopping is for sissies...

oh, come on, you don't think i wouldn't be upgrading my brakes do you? gimme a little credit here. i'm also going to have tires and a windshield! :roll:

Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:20 pm

NiccoHel wrote: Icy wrote: NiccoHel wrote: speaking of motor/trans swaps... a buddy of mine is in the process of transplanting the motor and trans of a mitsu EVO into his '73 MGB. he wants to disable the front drive portion and retain rear wheel drive. that EVO motor is frickin' tiny, so it'll definitely fit in his car. i think he's gonna die, but it'll be fun to watch. if he doesn't kill himself with it, i might seriously consider something similar for my '73 ghia coupe. anyone ever hear of anyone doing that kinda lunacy to a ghia? it'd seriously blow away the HP rating for a 912.

HP and going fast is fine, but first, be concerned with how you're going to be able to stop.

stopping is for sissies...

oh, come on, you don't think i wouldn't be upgrading my brakes do you? gimme a little credit here. i'm also going to have tires and a windshield! :roll:

I've been on this forum long enough to have seen several people talk about the "big, bad ass engine" going into the car, yet they've not given a second thought to upgrading the brakes.

Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:19 pm

Icy wrote: NiccoHel wrote: Icy wrote: NiccoHel wrote: speaking of motor/trans swaps... a buddy of mine is in the process of transplanting the motor and trans of a mitsu EVO into his '73 MGB. he wants to disable the front drive portion and retain rear wheel drive. that EVO motor is frickin' tiny, so it'll definitely fit in his car. i think he's gonna die, but it'll be fun to watch. if he doesn't kill himself with it, i might seriously consider something similar for my '73 ghia coupe. anyone ever hear of anyone doing that kinda lunacy to a ghia? it'd seriously blow away the HP rating for a 912.

HP and going fast is fine, but first, be concerned with how you're going to be able to stop.

stopping is for sissies...

oh, come on, you don't think i wouldn't be upgrading my brakes do you? gimme a little credit here. i'm also going to have tires and a windshield! :roll:

I've been on this forum long enough to have seen several people talk about the "big, bad ass engine" going into the car, yet they've not given a second thought to upgrading the brakes.

icy-
ok, i conceed to your point: sometimes people are stupid. don't let that prejudice you to everyone though. i have been lining up parts for my '69 for a while now, and i am still undecided about brakes. not because i find them unimportant, but because i am looking for the highest possible quality. i will probably never toss an EVO mill into my '73, but it gave me a giggle to think about. my '69, on the other hand, is getting a decent 1776. i am still looking for a "mild" crank for it (78mm), but for now i am still planning on a brake setup capable of handling a much larger motor. I had an incident a while back where the stock drums ate their own shoes. granted the front discs do most of the stopping, but they were a bit taxed by the sudden need to stop. nearly ended up in the trunk of another car. Brakes are very important to me.

74ghia-
as for the 912 engine, i don't see any obvious advantage to having that motor transplanted, when, as others have mentioned, a VW based motor will serve just as good if not better. as for the transaxle, the necessary modifications might cost just as much as a decent 5-spd "freeway flyer" or similar. unless you perform the work yourself. hell, even finding and fitting a type 2 tranny and adapter is a pain in the a$$, but might be about on par with the porsche model. i think you are right about possibly selling the parts to your buddy...

Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:13 am

The "big, bad ass engine" going into a ghia would have to be a WRX turbo. Just dont know what sort of gearbox you could fit it onto that would cope. An auto gearbox could be interesting (anyone have any ideas on this?) and with the WRX (or any modern motor) you could have all sorts of accessories power brakes, air con etc

Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:24 am

sirzo wrote: The "big, bad ass engine" going into a ghia would have to be a WRX turbo. Just dont know what sort of gearbox you could fit it onto that would cope. An auto gearbox could be interesting (anyone have any ideas on this?) and with the WRX (or any modern motor) you could have all sorts of accessories power brakes, air con etc

yeah, i was thinking something along those lines with my buddy's EVO powered MGB. aside from highly accurate engineering (like that super porsche ghia), a person could just "neatly" hack holes in the right places and sit a ghia on a subie drivetrain...

anybody have WRX, or similar, engine & transmission dimension specs anywhere?

Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:25 am

Niccohel
Hard to imagine someone wanting to hack into a Ghia for this type of conversion unless it was an ex basket case, however...
Copied from Googling:
2004 Subaru WRX; Engine Code : EJ20 Type : Chassis Code : Exterior dimensions Curb Weight : 3,085 lbs Weight Distribution F/R : 60/40 approx. Overall Length : 173.4 in. Wheelbase : 99.4 in. Overall Width : 68.1 in. Track F/R : 58.5 in. Height : 56.7 in. Then there is the STi...

Only info I could find was that engine was 30.5" across timing cover.

Was thinking of a non original Ghia in my retirement plan (I'm getting lazy) so a WRX motor attached to an auto gearbox is appealing