TheSamba.com :: View topic - How do you restore a Vert rear view mirror?

Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:23 am

Now this must have been done before. I've searched for a while and can't find anything. The complete mirror assy on my 55 Vert needs restoring, no great issue, apart from the rear view mirror.

How do you disassembly it? Or can't you without damaging something?

The mirror housing clearly needs polishing and the ball-joint/arm to the mirror housing rechroming. Also need to fit a replacement mirror glass - so how does one accomplish this?

As the housing is pressed over the edge of the mirror, the only thing I could come up with was smashing the glass, disassemble, chrome/polish, reassemble and then have a new glass cut almost the same size at the mirror housing aperture.

What is the preffered method for restoring this item? Must be some of you out there that have done this already?

For info, here's a couple of pics of the mirror and assy.
Front:

Back:

Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:44 am

i heard that Koch restores these. maybe you should give them a call.

i swapped the mirror glass on a 58 bug mirror that is pressed just like any other mirrors.
the trick was that i used a fairly used knife, carefully driving it thorough the aluminum ridge and the mirror, carefully not to pull the lip too far. when passing the knife almost 3 times all over, i could move the glass and take it out. the same i did to another mirror to get the good glass mirror. once i put the new glass in, i took a piece of soft wood (pine i think) and started pressing the aluminium lip back into place, with longitudinal moves, just like i did with the knife on the inside. the soft wood left no marks, the aluminum bent back into place easily and the glass is now safely in. as for the further disasembly i guess the aluminum mirror holds to the arm with a screw or something.. can't remember at least how mine was. :roll:

if you want to attempt such a operation, i can open up another mirror and post pics, step by step, as well as for the disassemby, and for the asembly of the glass.

all i can say is this : i used this trick for a fairly common miroor, and not for an oval vert one, yours is 10 times expensive than mine... so i would go to professionals

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:23 pm

As Aluminum becomes work hardned when it is bent into a shape, I have learned that a slight heating the aluminum will soften this temper just enough so as to allow the metal to be bent without as much worry of fracturing it.

I saw this technique demonstrated by Jessie James on the first Discovery Channel program he was featured on. He was building a gas tank, and used a carburizing flame to soften the aluminum sheet before taking a mallet to it.
As the mirror is to be replaced, applying a small amount of heat can't bring on much to worry over, and may allow you to roll back the lip of the mirror assy more easily.

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:30 pm

I think Ruben ( at kochs) told me they just break the mirror (glass) to get it out, i could be mistaken this was about 6 years ago and 2 kids later give him a call.
Dave

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:35 pm

Koch's will take your mirror Get it all apart polish and or chrome whatever needs to be done, Put a new mirror / assemble it and your done! Give them a call .. Its what they do.

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:47 pm

Koch is currently restoring mine, they do great work & very affordable. :P

Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:06 pm

it's really not that tough, i've done the break glass/polish/rechrome on a couple mirrors with good sucesss.

josh

Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:55 pm

56Cabrio wrote: I think Ruben ( at kochs) told me they just break the mirror (glass) to get it out, i could be mistaken this was about 6 years ago and 2 kids later give him a call.
Dave

I got my 56' mirror back from Koch's with pry marks on the metal on side of the mirror, but other than that, the resto on the mirror was great and affordable. I think they have to bend the lip a little bit to get the new mirror in. They did my steering wheel as well.

Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:38 am

Have done my share of mirror restoration work here as well. Some tips from the past here.

Before you take anything apart first do the bulk of your aluminum mirror backing restoration work if possible, not all of it perhaps if you need to work out some rear dings/dents, but at least get rid of all the heavy crud, dings/dent removal, oxidation zits/pits removal, surface refinishing to a dull shine.

If you are going to break the original glass to get it out, you will want to prefinish and polish the aluminum bezel lip now (with the original glass in place again). As after the new glass is in place there is alot of risk involved here in polishing in this area, as polishing at least on a wheel has its way of crudding itself into any gaps that in any pinched areas of the bezel, or between the gap in the glass and bezel. You can create 3x more work for yourself here easy if you polish instead in this area as the last step in finishing your mirror. If you prefinish this bezel first you can get rid of any excess crud after you get the original glass out. Polishing the aluminum itself is an art so this step can't be taken lightly either, you can't heat this thin aluminum up too much, you can gall the aluminum easy enough if you are not using the correct polish, and you need the right technique to get a swirl free mirror finish.

But, if you aren't going to break the glass since you don't have a good glass pattern ahead of time, and nor can you use the outer shape of the aluminum as a pattern, then inherently there is alot more risk to damaging that aluminum bezel lip, since the curled over lip will need to be raised up in order to get that glass out. The reason why you see alot of bodge jobs with marks and dents and pinches on restored mirrors is because raising this bezel is another artform, and results will always vary. The first thing you do is use or make the right tool for the job. Being a trained jeweler here I use what is called a bezel/burnisher. it looks like a swollen spade tip screwdriver but it has no corner edges anywhere, every edge is rounded. If you go at this original bezel with a knife edge, blade, screwdriver tip, jewelwers screwdriver YOU WILL damage this THIN aluminum lip GUARANTEED, and perhaps PERMANENTLY.

There is almost no room here for removing bezel lip damage after you do it since the aluminum is so thin. Use the right tool or make it, and when you make it round every edge so nothing will catch it, polish that tool, and then lubricate that tool with some machine oil before you start using it. The smoother and longer the motions you use to consistently raise as much of that bezel lip in one movement the less damage you will do. You want to go at this SLOWLY, just raise the lip almost not noticeable at a time per pass. You are trying to coax the tightly work hardened aluminum molecules to move little by little. To aggressive and you can crack the lip. GO SLOW.

SO, IF you are going this route, on such a rare mirror, and doing it yourself, PRACTICE. Don't touch this rare mirror as your first job. Go and buy a cheap cruddy original oval mirror (yes I know the shape is slightly different but it doesn't matter), and then practice raising this bezel lip and making the right tool and making adjustments to your tool as you find what works best for your technique. Buy a used mirror at a swap or call one of the shops, or even fork out the $30 for a reproduction oval mirror and take that one apart, they are closely made to the original. The idea is you need to develop your own technique for lifting that bezel at least before you try the vert mirror. There are no replacement backings you can use on a vert mirror. Which is WHY you see so many oval sedan mirror backings even on the correct arms used, someone screwed up taking the original mirror back, trust me that is what happened I guarantee it.

So, the less you have to mess with the bezel the better off you are. Yes you can anneal the area with heat but its also really thin material, too much heat/flame you can literally burn off the lip or deform it in seconds if you don't have any idea about applying heat here, and you don't have to pre-heat this area really in the end. If you know what you are doing it helps though, just don't do this for a first time. If you are curious, go and hit some 24 gauge aluminum sheet with flame first and see what flame does to aluminum to the edge rather quick. You hurt the aluminum bezel in any way you will have to throw this backing out and then have to go with a sedan backing.

Also, don't break the glass if you don't have a good pattern for new glass, or a new piece of glass already. You also need a good pattern that matches your original glass best as possible since that aluminum lip bezel has no slop, and believe it or not from my experience not all original mirror glass are exactly the same dimensions, or their edge/beveled sides/corners cut/prefinished the same. I've seen the same shape mirror glass be very different for reasons unknown. I have some vert cut glass here but each one is slightly different before its finished/beveled. You could call Kochs to perhaps buy one of his vert mirror glass pieces, but again they will tell you that you will have to work around what they send you.

WHEW! Anyways, once you get the glass out you can bend up just a few of the retainer plate tabs and bend up slightly a few of the others to snake that plate out from a side. Keep in mind I've seen these retainer tabs break rather easily as well even though they are 20 gauge steel. You break a tab and then you will have to replace it so the mirror adjustment mechanism functions properly. Once the plate is out you can take the arm off. A chromer can mask off the center pivot block too, don't chrome this piece.

Once you have the mirror backing apart then you can dial in the rest of the cosmetics as you have access all around. If you broke the glass to get it out you still need to raise this bezel lip in order to get the new glass in. But at least with the glass out its alot easier/safer to do this. You can also apply heat if you dare doing it a little easier to get those aluminum molecules freed up a bit. Use your burnishing tool in similar motions. As another guy suggested too you can use a nice piece of thin hardwood as a smoothing tool also to help raise this lip. Ideally you should use a piece of pipe in rounding the corners of the bezel lip, on an angle. The radius of the pipe (say 1/2" copper), with some machine oil on it, will round the corners without catching on anything and get that lip raised in these crucial corner areas.

Then you have to work at the glass too, you can carefully fashion the edge of the mirror glass on an upright belt sander with fine grit if you have one, but be careful not to heat it up too much or you will break it or fracture off chunks of glass. Glass shops won't do too much edge bevelling either even if you ask them, its risky to them also. Just go really slow to try and match the edge that is on your original mirror glass. The edge of this mirror glass is not just a right angle square edge, you have to get that sanded down some so the bezel can curve over that edge the way it should.

So, once you get it all out, reworked the mirror back, prepped the glass, worked out the bezel lip now comes the fun part of putting it all back together. Its just the reverse of how it came apart. But, when you are re-seating the aluminum lip you also have to go as slow lowering this lip as you did raising it. I use a combination of tools, hardwood clay working tools with curved edges first to do the initial lowering, it reduces risk of damage to the prefinished/polished lip. You work the entire bezel evenly all the way around, a little at a time, do not just work one area down and then another. You want the molecules to work all together to help prevent any cracks or pinches.

Anyways, these are tips to keep in mind, its mostly all technique and the right tools, and tons of patience. There is a reason folks are suggesting going to Kochs and for the most part thats a wise move to be honest on these mirrors, as they have done probably a few dozen of these specific mirrors. Now just know ahead of time you won't get a factory perfect restoration back, there are risks, some come out better than others. You have to realize that its all hand work doing what was done by a machine initially, so expect some variation in the results. The question is will they be able to do that with better results than you can and is that worth the extra money, in exchange also for freeing up your time? Only you can decide.

Unfortunately I cannot take on this work as we are booked out solid with resto work for at least a year or more ahead to be honest. Check with Kochs to see what they tell you and charge, if nothing else but a reference point. But don't expect them to share trade secrets similar to what I just did above, everyone is busy, I'm just having my morning coffee and decided to share some tips. Good luck.
Gary

Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:55 am

Thanks for all the replies guys.

As it's such a rare item, I will think long and hard as to whether I want to accomplish this myself. I've emailed Koch's but no response yet.

Gary
Outstanding response. Got to be one of the best replies I've seen to a question on this forum! :wink: And all while your having your coffee! :lol:

I'm sure the time it took you to write all that you could of restored my mirror!!! :wink: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, thanks, it'll help a lot if I decide to tackle this myself.

Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:06 am

i have done several mirrors by now, but Gary Constantine at Brezelwerks never ceise to amaze me. this is the difference between a home made job (i used only 2 tools :) and a professional restorer.
it takes a lot of patience and dedication to help others by sharing knowledge, what to do and what not to do, different techniques, and for that we are all thankful.
all the posts i have read by Brezelverks are true knowledge and it clearly shows this man is doing wonderful tasks for the customers.

Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:29 am

Yes, and not only that, he makes wonderful parts also. I've just ordered all my ivory interior parts from him. :D

Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:19 am

Damn, Gary where were you when I needed to do my thesis? That's some pretty good detail in there. All I did was rub the aluminum with Mother's polish. :lol:

Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:32 am

since we're talking abot aluminum polish, what do you guys use to buff the parts? is it ok to use 3M compounds for paint buffing? i am asking this because i cannot find any kits for different types of materials (glass, aluminum, etc) , but just for paint. for the moment i use 2000 and 3000 grit sandpaper, and wool cloth on a drilling machine. after the polish should i use clear coat or something? or just leave it like that? in time it gets stained...
thank you. :D

Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:05 pm

vwbeetleeurope wrote: since we're talking abot aluminum polish, what do you guys use to buff the parts? is it ok to use 3M compounds for paint buffing? i am asking this because i cannot find any kits for different types of materials (glass, aluminum, etc) , but just for paint. for the moment i use 2000 and 3000 grit sandpaper, and wool cloth on a drilling machine. after the polish should i use clear coat or something? or just leave it like that? in time it gets stained...
thank you. :D

Afternoon cup of coffee here, glad the am cup worked out for some of you guys...

There are many buffing and polishing techniques out there. I literally have 5 heavy duty buffers on floorstands here, each one has their own specific function and own unique (dry) compound dressed on a variety of types of buffs, from tripled up cloth buffs to sisal, threads, etc. These are setup though to handle a large variety of parts and to handle larger parts since they have lots of clearance around them.

Different metals use different dry compounds, a good lesson on them you can get for free just inside any Eastwood catalog, and even online there, and they sell buffing videos there as well which are informative and shed alot of light on the subtle motions involved in how to buff correctly.

Technique has alot to do with your ultimate results, however, in general you can get away with one general for most things with just one compound in your shop, its just called a "white" compound, in the jewelry and metalsmithing world its the trade name, and it can both provide a medium level of cuttting action at the same time giving you quite a nice chrome finish as well if desired, and if you back off on the wheel some during your finishing steps.

But, to alot of folks that don't have buffing wheels, thats ok too literally, here is another way to approach it and one of my other tricks of the trade you can do at the end to get a chrome finish. As vwbeetleeurope indicated, you can first start out with varying grit papers. We have several series of bins setup here at each workstation that are labelled with varying grits we cut up for all the handwork that goes into finishing/resto work here, just makes things organized and efficient.

Depending on the condition of the metal, regardless if its stainless in hardness all the way to brass and aluminum, I always suggest starting out with a 600 grit, to first remove the oxidation layer on top of any metal which forms from just sitting, it also tends to that layer where you see stains on the surface of aluminum, work your way to 1000, 2000 as mentioned. From there what we do is use the foam backed fine grit yellow sanding pads made by Norton, available at any Home Depot. The key here is that the foam allows you to keep working at the metal dry since it will not choke up with metal residue while sanding. It is the key to the last step in achieving a chrome finish, in fact as that foam grit wears down sometimes we stop there if we are looking for a slightly dull authentic aluminum chrome finish, perhaps more period looking.

The last ancient chinese secret step though, if we really want that chrome look, it doesn't involve rubbing compounds or waxes or liquids of any kind, what you need are a series of machinists cloths. Machinist cloth comes in grits which are cloth backed and highly flexible that can go over 20000. So either after your 2000 grit sandpaper, if you skip the foam pad step, you can go right to 3000, or 5000, then to 8000, and then up if desired. It doesn't take long to get the exact chrome finish you want, without a buffing wheel.

The downside to machinist cloth of course is that its quite expensive stuff, the grits are impregnated into the rubber like material on the top of the cloth, the good news is that they don't wear out too much, you can get some decent life out of them. Model makers in the diorama world use this stuff all the time to polish out tiny bits of this and that for their displays that would otherwise get blown away or sucked into a buffing wheel.

Also note, buffing wheels are very dangerous toys in a couple ways. Our whole buffing room is entirely a separate room which is highly filtered and ventilated. Compounds spew dust, very bad dust, the stuff that catches up with you in a nasty way 5-10 years down the line, if not sooner even, don't be fooled and don't just hold your breath while working. Never operate a buffing wheel that has a compound without a mask first, ever.

Next, those wheels spin extremely fast and they are completely merciless, keep that in mind, never hold onto a part in such a way that it could hook your hand or arm etc and then throw it into the wheel. In jewelry school I've seen one too many gory accidents happen with buffing wheels. Why that happens? Its the last step, its hard to be really patient when you are that close to finishing a part, so folks rush, they get anxious to finish, and then push the part too much here and there, forget about the laws and physics of buffing, and not keeping an eye on open and exposed edges on parts that can easily catch and turn your lovingly little part into a Ninja weapon.

Objects, especially small ones with edges such as sheet metal can get sucked into a buffing wheel and spin around and cut your fingers off instantly. NEVER ever hold onto a part so tightly that you could not release in a nanosecond if you need too, keep that in mind at all times, a firm but relaxed grip on all parts all the time. If you tense up your muscles will trap the part in your hand, so RELAX when buffing. Do not buff in such a way where the wheel spinning down is pushing onto an open edge, it will grab it and will become dangerous.

So aside from the buffing technique itself you first have to approach a wheel with a part in hand with safety in mind first, for you and your health first, and then also safety for the part. If a part should get caught, pulled in, or thrown at 100mph into the wall, even if you release the part safely, your part may become trash in 2 seconds. Its another one of those things you practice with safe parts so you feel how the buffer feels, pulls, reacts etc before you start trying to buff out fine parts.

Luckily though, machinist cloth is there to make it look like you either took extra time to professionally buff something or even had it chromed, it works wonders on aluminum and even things like the faces of everyday hardware.

There isn't much you can do to protect aluminum after its been polished, its exposed to oxygen, it will oxidize and dull up. There are a few compounds out there that folks use to dress on top of aluminum, yes some folks will clear coat, etc. But for the most part is you just hit the aluminum with a good wax once in awhile thats all you will need to do to retain the luster.

Machinists cloth you should be able to score at any machine shop supply house, or even some hobby shops carry small swatches of the stuff. Once one of you tries machinists cloth I expect to hear some raves about the stuff here! Good luck.

Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:49 pm

Well, Gary, you did it again! =D>

Another complete reply, i will follow your advice.

i may add that in the protection episode, the folks that are beginners may use a buffer at a low speed, to ensure that if anything happens, the force that blows the small bits (and hopefully not your cherished parts) away is smaller and cause no injuries.

i tend to agree that the finer the grit is the more shiny the part will become, and it's safer to polish with finer grit than with polish paste.

now it's all clear i should go get the finer grit cloth for my projects...

Thank you!

Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:59 am

Yep, another fantastic reply Gary :D Always, very, very helpful! :wink:

Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:25 pm

a really kick ass polishing compound that will make the mirror polish like chrome is simichrome. i use a baking soda and water paste first, then buff with a clean cotton white t shirt cut in a square, pulled over a 3m roloc disc and taped with electrical tape in the opposite direction the tool spins it using very light pressure you can get an amazing finish!

Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:42 pm

Thank You Gary for taking the time and concern to share your vast wisdom and experience with us. That is the sign of a true artist and craftsman--one who is willing to share it with others.

I will print both of your extensive posts on the mirror and polishing, etc. and study them at great length before contemplating my next move.

So much good advice . . . like practicing on an old mirror! For once, I'm glad I "asked first", since my usual methodology is to attack with an 8# sledge, crow bars and Channellocks! Whether I decide to do this myself, or take it to someone like Koch, I sincerely appreciate the time and effort you made to explain and share this with us.

Can't wait to get my parts from you. Thanks for all you do for the hobby.

SteveK

Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:24 pm

Great information Gary, thanks for sharing. Having worked in the manufacturing business for 30 years I have seen my share of accidents. I learned early on about the dangers of buffers, wire wheels & grinders. I have the scars to show it. In my early 20's I was grinding some parts on a large industrial grinder, I pushed the part and it slid off to the side and my fingers went into the stone. Strange seeing your fingers look like a cut away model ... white bone, cartilage, muscle tissue, burnt skin. It all happens in less than a blink of an eye. An old German machinist taught me something that I use when grinding. That is to position your feet with one foot forward rather than both feet together parallel to the grinder. This givers you more stability / control and easier to pull your hands back so you don't fall toward the grinder / buffer.