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Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:00 pm

I've always been fond of diesel technology, and would like to build one up for my Super Beetle. I know Raby makes a Type 4 he calls the "powerstroke," which is a diesel, so it would seem to me this is possible. However, the cost of his kit is upwards of 5K, which is at least double what I'd be willing to spend on an engine.

I'm wondering if there is a way to build a cost effective and economical diesel for the beetle. I'd love to pursue this project if it's a practical reality, but in all my searches I've turned up exactly nothing regarding a type 1 diesel build. Any thoughts?

Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:03 am

"Powerstroke" is what Ford calls their diesels V8s made by International. Raby's powerstroke is a type 4 gas engine. Any thoughts of a diesel built on any of the flat four aircooled VW engines is a pipe dream. No how no way, If you want a diesel in your bug convert to a Rabbit diesel, or some other diesel engine.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:29 am

Ahhh, silly me. Sorry about that. For the past several years, I guess based upon how Raby worded the listing, I always thought that was a diesel. It's probably because I had previous knowledge of the powerstroke as being a diesel engine, and made the (fallacious) assumption.

Whatev, no biggie. I'm really looking for a high MPG, reliable engine. I just read up on the Hot VW's project. Anyone else think the amount they're spending on EFI and custom exhausts for the somewhat unique heads offsets the incremental MPG increases they're getting? I'll have to ponder this subject some more, maybe shoot CB an email.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:59 am

Granted this is my personal opinion. The benefits of a vehicle that gets average mpg vs. high mpg is mostly psychological. Of corse its also a matter of how much you drive. The average savings on fuel costs may be only $500 a year at the two extremes. While $500 is allot of money. It is also equal to about one months car payment or one repair bill. An aircooled vw may not get great gas mpg but it is hands down the cheapest car to operate overall.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:29 am

My 69 VW gets 33 average on the highway.
The return on investment to convert it to diesel would not be worth it.
But, I do know there is an adapter to bolt a water cooled 4 cyl. engine to a Bug transmission. A local farm supply store has a crop sprayer that has a Rabbit engine, and a bug transaxle. Bitch to work on.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:20 am

George Evans wrote: Granted this is my personal opinion. The benefits of a vehicle that gets average mpg vs. high mpg is mostly psychological. Of corse its also a matter of how much you drive. The average savings on fuel costs may be only $500 a year at the two extremes. While $500 is allot of money. It is also equal to about one months car payment or one repair bill. An aircooled vw may not get great gas mpg but it is hands down the cheapest car to operate overall.

Yeah, I hear that. When I build up this engine, MPG isn't going to be the be all, end all. Based upon my research, 35 MPG is reasonably about as high as you're going to average on the freeway. I've seen some pretty powerful engines get around 20 mpg freeway on this site, so the difference between high MPG and low MPG would be more along the lines of $1000 per year. Not an amount to scoff at, but when $1K is spread out over a year, it doesn't hurt that much at all. And like you said, I'll be able to do the oil changes, etc, myself, so that would probably make up the difference.

In the end, I'm probably going to build up something similar to the hot VWs MPG engine, but maybe spiced up a just a bit. I like the fact that it uses stock pistons/cylinders for reliability. Indeed, the whole thing seems a very reliable piece of kit, and that's certainly more important to me than a few MPG one way or the other.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:43 am

Return on investment is the true indicator of the value of MPG attachment,yet some do get joy from squeezing the most out of an engine without too much regard for cost...I looked at Browns gas cells as a fuel strecher without following through....like all testimonials it has a high rate of ROI,as yet I havent found anyone who has realistic results....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:16 pm

My Powerstroke is a gas engine with the powerband of most diesels for heavy hauling.

The issues with creating a Diesel air-cooled engine are related to the cylinder heads and how the valve angle of the TI or TIV won't compliment a Diesel engine that uses a zero degree valve angle.

I began development of a TIV Diesel engine in late 2006, it never even got off of paper before I realized the cost to create it effectively would be counter-productive.

Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:44 pm

Deutz created a very reliable air cooled diesel that in its earlier design was aircooled exactly like the T1,the later ones cooled the engine oil only with fan air....the problem with incorporating the Deutz into the any of the acvw's would be power to weight,the Deutz is way too heavy for the power return...it would seem the noise would be unbearable and the torque band undriveable....they made tons of them for industrial and military purposes....and were developed right around the same time as the type 1,mid 1930's....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:52 pm

Oh and Deutz,as far as I know,did not make a horizontally opposed engine...they made inlines from 1 to 6 cyls and v-8s,12s,and 16s....curious to know if any one made a "boxer" diesel....laborgini (italy) and lister(england) also made air cooled diesels....

Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:16 pm

Vw did make a type 1 flat 4 air cooled diesel motor, it made 25 hp I think, and only made like 36mpg, they only made a few prototypes, there was an article about it on here a few months ago.

Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:25 am

I work on alot of Deutz motors. Have always wanted to try and squeeze one in a bug. But like mentioned above I think they are just way too heavy. There are small ones like the 2009 model, But I dont think it would have the power to move you around. They use them alot in mobile light generators. The turbo charged 1011, or 2011 might fit, but I think it would just be too heavy..

Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:52 am

My brother builds adapters to put Kubota diesels in Geo Metro's.
They are only 25hp. But get in the 50-60 mpg range.
There is an engine you might consider.

Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:39 pm

johnnypan wrote: Oh and Deutz,as far as I know,did not make a horizontally opposed engine...they made inlines from 1 to 6 cyls and v-8s,12s,and 16s....curious to know if any one made a "boxer" diesel....laborgini (italy) and lister(england) also made air cooled diesels....

I think this might be one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Super

Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:17 pm

Wikipedia says they once had a prototype that did a blazing 0-60 in just over a minute.

As awesome as it would be, I just don't think it would be feasable given the weight issues. Even a small 15hp single cyl diesel for a generator weighs slightly less than a type 1 engine anyways. However when you put one on a minibike... :twisted:

Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:30 pm

johnnypan wrote: I looked at Browns gas cells as a fuel strecher without following through....like all testimonials it has a high rate of ROI,as yet I havent found anyone who has realistic results....

The higher MPG's from a Brown's gas device is from leaning out the fuel mixture, either by hand on a carb engine, or putting a magic box inline with the O2 sensors. I too looked into putting one on my wife's minivan, until I saw that tidbit. Which, strangely enough, they don't tell you about on their websites. It's only after you've bought the book/kit whatever where you'll find it.
Believe it or not, I found out about them on eBay, where people were making and selling them to go along with a kit you already bought.

Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:51 pm

I didnt buy a browns gas generator cause the hucksters selling them seemed fishy....Im sure it works,the concept is right....on the other topic,we used aircooled deutz diesel engines on small paving machines....no variable govenor,the engine runs at high idle and powers a hydrostatic transmission...smooth power but ineficient for automotive use...the deutz would sure sound different at a stop light,clattering as it does....

Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:54 pm

johnnypan wrote: Im sure it works,the concept is right....

I don't think it does. The same result, a fuel mileage increase, can be done by leaning out your fuel mixture or tricking your FI computer into thinking it's running rich, which is what the mystery box does to the O2 sensors.
That's one of the steps in these kits.

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:03 pm

http://www.ltv-vwc.org.uk/wheelspin/ws_aug-sept-2003/diesel-beetle.html

1951 VW prototype diesel Beetle - This article, or parts of it along with photos, was in some old magazine called VW Trends... :wink:

Somewhere, buried in the attic, I have a copy of the VW Trends that has the article - I remember reading about it in the mid-to-late '80's?

bnc

Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:23 pm

To bad this never really took off. I am thinking bio-fuel.