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Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:15 pm

Ok another scenario to add to "it just won't start"

I replaced my ignition switch because I was having intermittent start problems (no fuel pump cycling, not turning over) I would slightly wiggle the key and it would start right away.

I have been through the whole system everything is clean, good connections etc...

So, cleaned connectios, new ignition switch and I'm still having the problem about 1 x in 20 starts. The other night I was looking at my ignition key, it's the original and quite rounded at all points that used to be sharp. The van always fires up when I shift the key around...could the key be the issue?

Thanks, Todd

Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:21 pm

If you have a soft copy, not an original steel VW key they can wear, and make everything feel sloppy when you are using the locks and ignition.
The fix is to have a steel VW key blank cut for your locks.
Did you just replace the plastic switch part, or the part that the key goes in?

Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:31 pm

I read in a Samba Post that a worn rear key could make your back hatch impossible to lock and unlock. I was dubious, but having such fun getting that hatch to lock and unlock that I had a new key cut.

That theory was absolutely right. The rear hatch has been trouble-free ever since.

:shock:

Best!

Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:31 pm

Not too many places will cut steel keys these days. It wears the key cutters. Best to call around first and see who will do it.

The locksmiths will tell you it's better to use brass keys because it's better to have the key wear out rather than the lock cylinder.

Hmmmm...

I have 35 year old original steel keys for my Alfa Romeo and all the locks work as smooth as if they were new. I tend to believe the steel keys are better based on my personal experience with that car.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:19 pm

PDXWesty wrote: Not too many places will cut steel keys these days. It wears the key cutters. Best to call around first and see who will do it.

If you can find steel blanks,(they are getting rarer everyday) there is a guy in the classifieds that will cut them for you.
All he needs is the number off the locks and the blanks.
If you look on Ebay you can probaly find blanks, they won't be cheap.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:45 pm

I got a blank identical to the original at the dealership for 10 smacks about three years ago. Being a numskull, i forgot to ask the guy at the dealership to cut it for me while i was there. I went to get it cut at my local hardware store and after it was halfway cut she realized it was steel. She was not happy after that. Needless to say, she did finish cutting it and i felt bad shortly after.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:48 pm

At the hardware store where I work, we're not allowed to cut steel keys anymore. The last time somebody did one, the cutting wheel had several teeth chipped off .. and the very next day the new rule came down and a replacement cutter was ordered & installed.

I can understand, the replacement cutter for our machine isn't cheap -- about $120. If the cutter is damaged worse than it was, we're out of the key-cutting business for at least a week unless we have another replacement on-hand...

Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:59 pm

To the original question: if the key can turn the lock cylinder, it's not a factor in your non-starting, dying, whatever engine symptom you happen to be wondering about. Wiggling the key when you suspect the ignition electrical switch just transfers the motion thru the lock cylinder and wiggles the switch rotor dog, which is engaged to the bottom of the lock cylinder. A badly cut or worn key can make the lock cylinder difficult to work, but once it turns it is turning the switch rotor and it's all the same as far as the switch is concerned.

Funny that some key cutters say they prefer a brass blank to a steel one. Brass and aluminum are soft metals and clog abrasive grinders, while a high-speed steel cutter won't really care which metal it is being used on as long as it isn't worked harder or faster or at a different angle than it can actually cut.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:16 pm

I had the same problem on our 73. I fought it for two years until the damn truck would not start in rachel, nevada. I replaced the starter solinoid and the problem went away.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:39 pm

mightyart wrote: If you have a soft copy, not an original steel VW key they can wear, and make everything feel sloppy when you are using the locks and ignition.
The fix is to have a steel VW key blank cut for your locks.
Did you just replace the plastic switch part, or the part that the key goes in?

Mighty where would one go for this? I have a 82 w/ the "original"(?) key, but it has worn down so much copies wont work on the back hatch (but erverywhere else starter all doors but the hatch)

Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:05 pm

Stígandi wrote: mightyart wrote: If you have a soft copy, not an original steel VW key they can wear, and make everything feel sloppy when you are using the locks and ignition.
The fix is to have a steel VW key blank cut for your locks.
Did you just replace the plastic switch part, or the part that the key goes in?

Mighty where would one go for this? I have a 82 w/ the "original"(?) key, but it has worn down so much copies wont work on the back hatch (but erverywhere else starter all doors but the hatch)

Contact Gabrial, and tell him what you need.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=517837

Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:48 am

thanx email sent

Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:18 pm

Hey guys and gals, this is and will continue to be an interesting post.
I learnded something new.
Much obliged all.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:25 pm

tencentlife wrote: ... while a high-speed steel cutter won't really care which metal it is being used on as long as it isn't worked harder or faster or at a different angle than it can actually cut.
And therein lies the reason many places prefer brass blanks over steel ones. Most hardware stores I've been in over the last 15 years have key machines with high-speed steel cutters .. including where I work. And many hardware stores get people with a severe case of Don't-Give-A-Shiat-Itis working the key machine .. including where I work. So the cutter is sometimes being worked harder/faster than it should.

You can (usually) get away with that using brass blanks, you can't with steel...

Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:55 pm

Yeah, I figured that was the real reason. Those kind of basically idiot-proof key-duping rigs gained prevalence quite awhile ago. You see them everywhere, and they enabled a lot of businesses to add key-duping to their offerings with little invested (the rig, and a rack full of blanks) and even less training required. The very first time I watched someone dupe a key for me, I realised that I could become an expert on that operation in under ten minutes if I had to.

The thing about fast-cutting brass and aluminum even with a HSS cutter is that a multi-toothed HSS cutter will clog, too, if you cut too fast without some cutting fluid. Once those soft metal bits clog the teeth, they are practically welded to the cutter. So the opportunities are still there for some counter-monkey to screw things up. I imagine some consideration went into the tooth design on those cutters to keep this factor under control.

I do agree that the soft metals are also favored because they won't cause so much wear internally in a lockset. I would rather replace a key than an entire lock any day.

Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:27 am

This last spring I found myself stranded in downtown Albuquerque when my 10-y/o Toyota's ignition lock seized up with absolutely no warning. Fortunately I after about 30 minutes of key wiggling was finally able to get the truck started and drive it to a good shop and get it replaced (not cheap).

The mechanic made two recommendations:

1. Get a new key cut from an original VW blank with the original key code (though I have to admit I don't know how to find the original key code on a Vanagon).

2. Steel keys are great (as noted above) but they wear out the lock mechanism. Use a brass blank and then replace it every few years, not by making a copy of the key but by, again, going back to the original key code. He considered it good maintenance, sort of like changing the oil, to prevent more expensive problems in the future. After spending $200 to get the ignition lock replaced and keyed the same as the doors, I would consider this an accurate assessment.

Both made sense, but still leaves the question:

Any idea where one might locate the original key code on a Vanagon?

Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:53 am

MootPoint wrote:
Any idea where one might locate the original key code on a Vanagon?

The easiest to get to is on the sliding door handle, if you have the original handle and it's keyed the same as the other locks.
Take the handle off the door and it's a four diget number stamped on the square shaft.

Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:59 am

That's really god to know, Art. The codes used to be printed in the owner's or maintenance books that came with the car, but for most of us those things are long gone.

I'll bet the dealer could look it up by VIN, too, if they were willing to cooperate. I suspect a lot of them wouldn't be willing to take the time, but I'll bet all that data is available to them.

Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:44 am

I had a world of key trouble with bad hardware store keys on two different vans. Find yourself a reputable honest-to-god locksmith who does automotive work and get yourself a code-cut key. Hardware store keys will often work, but sometimes they don't, particularly if they were cut off a worn key. It's easy to pop the lock and get the code.

Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:34 am

mightyart wrote: The easiest to get to is on the sliding door handle, if you have the original handle and it's keyed the same as the other locks. Take the handle off the door and it's a four diget number stamped on the square shaft.
Wow! Whodathunkit. Art, you are a walking (or driving) encyclopedia. While I don't have the original handle installed, the PO left the old one under the back seat so unless that's not the original either, I may be home free.

And if that one has a original and functional lock set installed (not sure why it was replaced), perhaps I could have a locksmith move it to the current handle, though I have no idea how. I can't say I know much about locks except that they only keep out honest people.

Thanks, Art, for a gem of info.