TheSamba.com :: View topic - First time caller/Long time listener AKA My 2.2 Rebuild

Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:21 pm

Hi Everyone!

I've been lurking here for a few months now, since purchasing my 87 Syncro Westy in August this summer. I've spent the past month doing searches and taking notes, mostly here, shoptalk and the mailing list - just ask my wife how much time I've spent doing the searches...

We took him (Bastian) on a couple of road trips this summer, down the Oregon coast and through the interior of BC. On the last leg of the trips, he was pushing exhaust gases into the coolant, suggesting (at the least) that one of the green rings in the bottom of the cylinders was shot. This only happens when 'compression braking' down long grades. I can drive him on flat roads forever, though. Both heads are weeping a little bit, and he marks his territory with a silver-dollar-sized oil spot after every drive. Since being parked for a couple of weeks, the oil spot hasn't grown much, so I guess it's being splashed around while driving.

Just after purchasing the van, I did the routine tune-up items - cap, rotor, wires, plugs, filters, oil change, thermostat (replaced the original from '87) burped the rad. I'm about 3 years away from being able to use collector plates and saving a ton on insurance, so those are a couple of reasons that I want to stay with a stock (ish) engine.

I'm up in Canada, eh, and our dollar is on the decline against the US buck, so for me, the option of buying an engine and having it shipped up here gets difficult and expensive.

I'll get some pics up soon, but for now - here are my plans and questions. Please feel free to comment, question and respond as you like.

My goal is a reliable, slightly-more-powerful-than stock, emissions-passing engine that I won't have to worry about for the next 20 years. Fuel economy is an issue, but not my top priority. I don't mind using 90 or even 94 if the need be.

My questions are - will this combination work, and what have I forgotten. I'm trying to keep this whole endeavour under $3500 CDN - today that's +/-$2950 to those of you in Obama-land.

Here's the list:

GW 2.2l P&L Kit
GW AMC heads - I want to get these ceramic coated - worthwhile?
Scat 5.4 or 5.5 CrMo rods (I get that the small ends have to be machined to 24mm, [EDIT] will I have to machine the pistons to get the 5.5s to work?)
CB Performance 2252 Cam & Cam gear
CBP Maxi I Oil pump
Engine Gasket set
Oil Pump cover nuts/gasket
Oil Pressure Release Valve & Spring
New Hyd lifters
(CrMo Pushrods?)
Clutch Kit - do I need to go heavy duty?
Main Bearings
Rod Bearings (do I need if I'm going with new rods?)
Camshaft bearings (are these 'always replace'?)
Blue coolant temp sensor (did the black one when I did the thermostat)
Oil Pressure switches
O2 sensor
Fuel lines

What other machining will I need besides the crank? I like the idea of sending the crank off to Mr. Stamkos, but in the interests of my budget, can my local machine shop do the work?

A little background about myself - I've been into watercooled VWs since I bought my first Mk2 Jetta in 94. Since then, I've gone through an 82 Scirocco that I swapped a later engine into, and did a bunch of bolt-ons to. My current car is a 90 Corrado (digi 1) that's turbocharged. My mechanic did the wrenching on that project. Because of the Corrado, I have a decent, basic understanding of Digifant, although I understand that there are some differences between the Corrado & the Vanagon - namely the knock sensor, and the availability of aftermarket tuning options. I work at a greenhouse/nursery during my days (sorry, folks, only legal plants grown there! :lol: ) and there's not much going on there this time of year. My time evaporates quickly in February until June, so I need to have the project finished by, let's say, Valentines Day.

What sort of special tools am I looking at? I've got the basics, a floor jack, a clean, well-lit 2-car garage, (2/3 taken up by the Westy) but no engine hoist, stand or workbench. I'll be able to work on it weekends and evenings. I'll start the teardown next weekend but I'm waiting on December 1 to order the GW parts in the hopes of a Christmas special.

How am I doing so far, gang?

Many thanks in advance!

Greg

Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:27 pm

Gowesty P&L kit: good choice, the most bang for your buck.

GW heads: look at saving money on gowesty's refurbished used AMC heads. They put in new valves with a new valve job but it costs less because they're reusing the cast head that came off a trade-in engine.

Scat rods: why? Do they cost less? Buy refurbished rods from van-cafe, you can trade in your old rods for the core charge. Just be sure to use the correct rod bolts, not stock "stretch-able" bolts.

Oil pump/cover: search for tencentlife's post on getting the clearance right between the cover and the gears: sometimes you use the gasket, sometimes you don't!

Pushrods: stock is good, used is fine as long as they're not bent.

Stock clutch is just fine for a 2.2, van-cafe usually has a good deal on the clutch kit. I've found that if I've done my research and I call with sensibile questions, van cafe guys are happy to listen, talk, and advise (peter in particular). And it's easy to order everything from one place. The heavier clutch is more important if you're building a hot-rod.

I like the green Curil-t as a case sealer. The gasket kit comes with sealant for the heads (black) and head nuts (yellow).

You will use a different oil main seal for the syncro engine, I don't think it comes with the gasket kit. Maybe the vendor you purchase from can swap it out for a small upcharge? I don't remember the reason for the different seal, this is something you should look into.

The rest of your list looks good but I'm in a rush and typing fast. I'm sure others will chime in, and I'll return to this post again to give it another look.

I've been able to get the engine in and out with only a floor jack. I put a piece of plywood between the jack and engine, I feel like it helps to balance. You should remove the shifter from the transmission because the trans is going to lower down with the engine and you don't want to bend the shift rod. Then before you detach the engine you must support the trans with something. A jackstand under it, or maybe a length of chain attached to the van's frame rails and run under the trans.

I highly recommend, in addition to the bentley, Tom Wilson's "How to Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air Cooled Engine." Even though it's about air cooleds, it's almost the same engine and contains lots of important information about how to assess the condition of your engine parts, and what the machine shop does to refurbish them. This way you can have an intelligent conversation with your machinist about what to do with your case and crank, and bearing sizes, etc.

The Wilson book also has good detailed advice on how to assemble a VW flat four, no matter whether it's air or water cooled, that I haven't seen in another book.

The other book I recommend is the Haynes manual for the vanagon. Even though you should have a Bentley I like the Haynes as a backup, especially for an amateur engine builder, because it gives step-by-step instructions on "what to do next" for your specific model of waterboxer. It is not syncro specific but that doesn't matter for the engine internals.

You will face frustration without a few special tricks or tools to attack the following:

Removing used piston pins
removing and installing different styles of circlips from pistons
removing and installing piston rings, and inserting piston into cylinder
removing pilot bearing from crank
removing and installing cam gear from crank

None of these are insurmountable problems but they may leave you frustrated and scratching your head. Being the cheapskate I am, I have devised my own tools or tricks for all of these tasks, which I hesitate to describe on the samba because they're so goofy. (The circlips only require the right type of pliers for the job, but the gowesty pistons come with a special clip that requires yet a different tool and technique!) I will share all, here on the samba, if you're interested. Can't type any more now but I wanted to get the conversation started. I'll continue soon in a follow up post.

Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:04 am

Let's see.....

Combustion gases forcing their way into the cooling system happens at the top of the cylinder, not the bottom. You got the color right, though; the black o-rings are on the bottom, green ones on top.

The GW P&L set is plug and play; you would only use a stock-length rod, 5.4". Easiest thing to do is use the stock rods, reworked with 1.9-type or ARP bolts. If you want a lighter rod, Scats are great, but the small ends have to be enlarged and rebushed to 24mm, they already come with 22. A local machinist might be able to do this, but don't count on it, it's harder to do than one might think. Scat says they will rework a new set for 24mm pins for about $20/rod. Allow plenty of lead time for remachining, though.

Of course you'll need new rod bearings. Bearing shells are a separate part from the rods. Cam bearings are the hardest-wearing in the wbx, typically, so they are "always replace", especially because they're cheap as chips. Get the double-thrust set for a couple dollars more. Only mains are sometimes reusable in my experience, but always use new rod and cam bearings.

The pinclips in the Wiseco pistons are a royal bitch, a modern form of torture. You might look forward to a good waterboarding after wrassling with those.

funagon mentioned the Syncro using a different seal, but that is the one on the pulley end; the flywheel seal is the same. Get the Sabo one from GW, it is superior in construction. The special Syncro pulley seal is optional; the regular pulley seal can be used if fording deep rivers isn't in your driving plans.

Don't think I'd bother with cro-mo pushrods, unless I was looking at high-high valve lifts or a very aggressive cam. This engine doesn't rev high enough where the lighter weight of cro-mo pushrods would provide any inertial benefit. Not sure you can find any the right length for the wbx anyway, but I haven't researched that. I would spend my money on some expandable pushrod tubes before I bought expensive pushrods. I like the easy serviceability of the expandables, and they make the top end final assembly a lot easier.

The 2252 isn't in that category at all, pretty mild and nice low-mid torque, good with 1.1 or 1.25 rockers, but you'll get better overall power with the 1.25's because the cam lift is pretty short. Use Porsche-style swivel-foot adjusters for maximum valvestem and guide life; add .060" shims under the rocker blocks when you use the swivel-feet. Setting up the rockers with solid shims instead of the cheesebag wavy spring shims VW used is worthwhile and also better for overall valve accuracy and life.

Don't know much about GW's head program; I buy my own AMC's new and rework them and do my own port work.

After you strip the crankcase completely, take it to your machinist for a hot-dip to clean it all out. Take the big bearing saddle nuts, all 6 M10 nuts, so he can torque the case and mike the bearing saddles for you. You want to have a clean bill of health on that case before you put all these expensive parts into it.

Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:31 pm

tencentlife wrote: Cam bearings are the hardest-wearing in the wbx

Nahhhh:

Not only in Wasser

Ben

Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:31 pm

Thats funny Ben, I too have seen cam bearings in type4 's like that too!!!

Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:09 pm

Yeah, all them boxers munch their cam bearings.

Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:55 pm

Thanks guys.

I've been cobbling information together from various posts here and on shoptalk, so that's where the questions regarding rod length came from. Now that I'm set straight on length - what sort of benefits come from CrMo rods in this sort of engine? I expect that there are some weight savings, and additional strength, but do I need stronger rods? Are the weight savings on the rods akin to the weight savings on the pushrods - that is - I'm not going to see results where I'll be driving this engine?

GW does a mild port on their heads and puts new German valves in. http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=108 Looking round the net at the usual suspects, their price seems great all things considered. The website indicates that they're sold out of refurbished AMC heads.

On Syncro.org there's a suggestion to ceramic coat the heads to avoid future corrosion problems - anyone done this? What did you think?

Thanks all!

Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:22 am

Lighter pushrods provide negligible benefit with the stock valvetrain. They're only going to be a few grams lighter, and the pushrods oscillate in a less than 3/8" range. If you were increasing lift a lot or using a much more aggressive cam, the extra strength could be a benefit; less flexing.

Rods are different. Obviously the stock rods were strong enough, so unless you're upping the torque a lot there's no need for greater strength so long as the stretch-bolt issue is taken care of. But, cro-mo rods will be several ounces lighter apiece, and the rods oscillate in a 3" range, so there's a lot of inertial work-loss there. Lighter rods free up power. The fact that the material is also stronger is incidental, but more strength never hurts especially when it does not come with the usual weight penalty. Stronger material should also be less prone to ovalling of the big ends.

Not necessary, but beneficial. Cost-effective by itself? Definitely not, when good rebuilt stock rods can be had so cheap.

If you were building a high-rev screamer, weight reductions on any component add up to more crankshaft power, because force goes up as the square of velocity. Extra strength really becomes a factor too the higher it revs. But with the stock FI you're rev limited to 5500rpm, which is hardly "screaming", and your actual driving will be done with the crank spinning pretty slow.

Most of the guys on Shoptalk are building race motors which will rev higher, and they're doing whatever they can to up the power, so these upgraded components become important.

Ceramic coating the heads seems like a fair idea if you can get the work done locally, but I sure wouldn't let it hold up the job. There would be a small gain in combustion efficiency if the chambers were done. Coating the entire flat sealing area would reduce the total area for heat transfer to the coolant substantially, so the heads might actually run a bit hotter at the level of the chambers, which might not be so good. As far as corrosion protection, it may be superfluous; I have yet to see any pitting at all on an AMC head. I'm beginning to believe that they are made of a different alloy that is less prone to the type of corrosion that plagued the stock heads. People are more on top of the maintenance, too, being aware of the potential trouble, but I ran a set of AMC's with a no-phosphate coolant for some eight years and 90k miles, never changed the coolant, and they came off completely free of corrosion. I've bought AMC's used with unknown maintenance histories, and have yet to see pitting. This is true of some VW heads, too, but a great deal were replaced under warranty and perhaps the maintenance was done better after the first disasters. I'd like to do a kind of survey of everyone who pulls a head off to see how many are AMC's and if any have pitting in the usual places. I'll bet Ben could cite a pattern.

Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:40 pm

tencentlife wrote:
Rods are different. Obviously the stock rods were strong enough, so unless you're upping the torque a lot there's no need for greater strength so long as the stretch-bolt issue is taken care of. But, cro-mo rods will be several ounces lighter apiece, and the rods oscillate in a 3" range, so there's a lot of inertial work-loss there. Lightening there merely frees up power. Not necessary, but beneficial. Cost-effective by itself? Definitely not, when good rebuilt stock rods can be had so cheap.

So I remain unsold on the benefits of ceramic coating the heads - I guess some of it will depend on what it's going to cost me to have it done.

Regarding the rods, the theory there I suppose is the same as lightening the flywheel - lowering rotating mass and all. I've got a lightened FW in my Corrado, it seems a rather standard thing to do there, but is it something that I want to mess with in the Van? If I can free up some power that way, what are the cons?

I checked the search, but didn't come up with anything - is there a reason for that?

Thanks much,

Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:56 pm

The answer is as tencent said here:

Quote: If you were building a high-rev screamer, weight reductions on any component add up to more crankshaft power, because force goes up as the square of velocity. Extra strength really becomes a factor too the higher it revs. But with the stock FI you're rev limited to 5500rpm, which is hardly "screaming", and your actual driving will be done with the crank spinning pretty slow.

The vanagon engine doesn't rev up to high RPM's so it doesn't benefit as much from lightening the moving parts.

You get more power from the vanagon engine by increasing the bore and stroke. You are already increasing the bore by purchasing the GW 2.2 pistons. Increasing stroke means buying custom crank and rods, and custom checking that the valvetrain is set up right. And I believe Gowesty does mods to the case for a 2.4 and 2.5 liter WBX.

The easiest increase in displacement is to add the GW 2.2 piston kit to a good stock rebuild, and consider 1.25 ratio rockers as well. This is no harder than a totally stock rebuild, and you get a noticeable increase in performance.

Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:09 pm

I look at limiting reciprocating mass as actually freeing up power. Anything that has to reverse direction will require power to do so every single time, so any reduction in the power used to make elements change direction and speed is power available to do work elsewhere, like turn the crankshaft. Those elements have to change direction with every rotation of the crankshaft, so that is wasted work at every phase of engine operation; the loss of energy increases exponentially with rotation speed due to the force/speed equation. The use of power is of course related to the elements' weight, speed, and range of motion, which is why I think there's little to be gained in the valvetrain in a moderately tuned road engine but plenty to be gained in the bottom end, where elements like the rods are much much heavier and oscillate in a far wider range. The rods and pistons also reverse direction twice for each engine cycle, whereas an individual valve only opens and shuts once per cycle, and is fully at rest more than half the time.

I see reducing rotating mass as not so much freeing up power (although technically that is what is happening in the short term when you ask the engine to change it's rate of rotation) as altering the flow of power, the rate at which you can extract it from the engine to do useful work. Lightening the flywheel makes for more rapid acceleration in smaller, lighter-weight cars where the power-to-weight ratio is relatively high. In a truck engine, which is what a Vanagon engine is, there should be more emphasis on stability of power delivery since the power to weight ratio is already so unfavorable. The spinning mass of the flywheel acts to stabilise engine rotating energy, so it acts like a kind of capacitor, absorbing a portion of the engine's output when an increase in revs is demanded, but then serving to stabilise that rotation speed once the new, higher rate is achieved. So I don't view lightening of the flywheel to be desirable in a truck engine, since the quicker response under load you experience when doing that in a lighter car isn't something you're really going to notice because the flywheel doesn't make any power, it merely serves as a kind of rotational dampener and it's the engine itself which has to increase the spinning rate in any case.

In a nutshell, the quicker throttle response you notice with a lightened flywheel in a small street or racecar is going to be far less, if at all, noticeable in a big truck, but will come at the cost of smooth idle and better inertial stability once the engine is pushing the truck down the road at your desired speed.

Anyhow, that's how I look at it.

Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:19 pm

Thanks, guys!

To paraphrase what someone else said during his rebuild - I'm only doing it once, and want to do everything I can (within reason and my budget) to eke out whatever performance I can without sacrificing reliability.

I'm trying hard to balance the cost/performance/reliability triangle, but my limited knowledge on the subject is my limiting factor. I really appreciate all the help that's being thrown my way.

I do believe that the teardown starts this weekend...

Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:06 pm

"I'm trying hard to balance the cost/performance/reliability triangle".

That's a very good way to sum up what it's all about.

It's a variant on my favorite,
"Price. Speed. Quality. Pick any two."

Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Alright - so I've just spent a bunch of the weekend readying the Westy for the job that's to be done. I began by cleaning out the garage and making as much room as I possibly could. Still, I don't have a heckuva lot of room to work:

(It got a little tight between the van and the freezer when jacking it up today)

Looks like I gotta get some windex to clean off the freezer before Mrs. Baxta sees it! :lol:

About 6' between the rear bumper and the back wall:

Harder to see, but there's about a foot clearance between the hatch and the ceiling:

Yesterday, I did most of the first two pages in the big green book, and sat down last night thinking that this would be a piece of cake. All hoses, lines and connectors were unhooked and labeled in about 3 hours.

I went down there today thinking that I'd be pulling the engine after a couple of hours. Heh. Note to anyone doing this in a Syncro - even though Bentley doesn't tell you to drain the oil and drop the filter, you gotta do that before dropping the skid plate as one of the skid plate bolts bumps into the filter. I didn't think much of it, but the dealership mechanic that checked the van out for me this summer must have put the filter on with an impact gun because it didn't budge. So off to the FLAPS/box store to get a wrench. (I don't own one because I do all of my own changes and don't overtighten the filters...)

A second note to syncro owners - there are a total of six, not four bolts that hold the skid plate to the frame. After some beating, I got it off, but this was about the extent of my results of the day:

The chunk of metal standing next to the tires is the skidplate - 1/2 covered in oil and dirt. The tar sands got nothing on my garage!

Next question - how much clearance do I need under the van to drop the engine out? Crummy photo, I know, but it's a syncro, and there's about 2" clearance under the rear tires.

As the jack will be under the engine, I won't be able to jack the van up any more after I pass the point of no return. Anyone ever measure it?

More to update perhaps mid-week.

Cheers!

Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:04 am

Quote: how much clearance do I need under the van to drop the engine out?

Here's some answers for you:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=329194

I'm more concerned that you've got the van backed up against a wall. It doesn't look like you've got enough room between the rear bumper and that red tool chest to pull the engine out on a jack.

Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:28 am

Thanks, Funagon.

I saw that other post and it put my mind at ease a bit for the height issue. I'll pull the accessories off tonight and hopefully drop the engine before the weekend. The red tool chest is on wheels - I'll definitely be moving it to get the jack in place.

Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:29 am

funagon wrote: Quote: how much clearance do I need under the van to drop the engine out?

Here's some answers for you:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=329194

I'm more concerned that you've got the van backed up against a wall. It doesn't look like you've got enough room between the rear bumper and that red tool chest to pull the engine out on a jack.

Hehe... I saw this thread just after I started the thread above. Nice pictures! I'll be watching this thread closely! Cheers!

Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:11 am

It looks like you'll need to open the garage door to slide the engine out. Just another thought regarding your other post about getting the engine out. Here's what I came to prefer given that I didn't have a lot of height and worked alone. I bough a piece of 1" plywood and drilled 4 large holes on one end. I put thick rope through the holes creating two handles. When the engine was dropped onto the plywood, I was able to drag it out from the rear of the van. It was much better to recruit a friend or neighbor to help drag for less than a minute. After finishing the build, I'd do the same and slide it back under by pushing the plywood under with my legs. I know it is totally low-tech but, it made the job possible for me and did not cause any damage to the engine do to the softness of the wood.

Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:53 am

hansh wrote: It looks like you'll need to open the garage door to slide the engine out. Just another thought regarding your other post about getting the engine out. Here's what I came to prefer given that I didn't have a lot of height and worked alone. I bough a piece of 1" plywood and drilled 4 large holes on one end. I put thick rope through the holes creating two handles. When the engine was dropped onto the plywood, I was able to drag it out from the rear of the van. It was much better to recruit a friend or neighbor to help drag for less than a minute. After finishing the build, I'd do the same and slide it back under by pushing the plywood under with my legs. I know it is totally low-tech but, it made the job possible for me and did not cause any damage to the engine do to the softness of the wood.

I'll be looking at this - I've got a 1" chunk of chipboard that I'm going to put under the engine for balancing and protection. Did you drop the engine onto the plywood directly (seems like a long drop) or was there something else under it?

This leads to another question, and I can't find it on the search - what does a 2.1 engine weigh? A search on 2.1 engine weight brings up lots on towing capacities and oil choices, but nothing (that I could see anyways) on how much the engine weighs. I'm sure anyone who's had one shipped has a really good idea on this...

Thanks again,

Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:02 pm

Quote: what does a 2.1 engine weigh?

Without exhaust or accessories, I'd guess about 100 or 150 lbs -- light enough that you can push it around on the floor, but heavy enough that you don't want to drop it, or throw your back out trying to pick it up. Me and a friend can easily pick it up and set it on the workbench, but I don't do it by myself.