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Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:38 am

Hi,

I'm currently experiencing a problem that is preventing gear engagement with a running engine (T1). There is another thread with more info if interested, but here I'd like to throw out some basic questions in hopes that the clutch legends will weigh in with their knowledge:

1. How much rearward travel should the TOB get when the clutch pedal is fully depressed to the floor?

2. Related to #1, how much much rearward travel should it require from a Pressure Plate to adequately free up a disc?

3. Do Pressure Plates lose tension over time, and subsequently require less pressure to perform?

4. Regarding this type of 'Heavy Duty' PP:

a. Are people still using these? I've heard references to them such as, "way back when I used to see those", or "haven't seen one of those lately".

b. Should one (of moderate strength) be able to depress it by hand, either when installed or laying flat on the ground?

5. In comparing the above to this type of 'Regular' PP:

a. How much more effort should it require to depress, if at all?

b. What advantages should one expect (due to the added expense)? Longer lifespan? Cleaner clutch/shift operation?

c. Which setups or situations, if any, would call for the HD type?

6. Which of the friction Disc types (sprung, rigid) is recommended to be used with each PP? Or does it even matter?

Lots of questions, I know! Any pearls of wisdom will be greatly appreciated however!

Thanks. :)

Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:35 pm

heavy duty indicates it has stronger springs ...yes they were down and loose there pressure...

Kennedy has used both style for there's. but over the last 10 + years I think they have only used the diaphragm type..

I'm on day 3 of working with the same problem as you.. but I have a stock of parts to deal with .. yesterday I used 3 diffrent P plates.. one being a kennedy..

I've taken the entire clutch system a part, front to rear.
This morning I have been trying to find the Part ## of the clutch arm .. the arm the cable hooks to .. mine starts with 131 which is the same as some Bug arms
I have taken four of those and checked the angle of the arm, in relation to the shaft spilnes,,, There not all the same,, but only off by a 1/8"

This is the only early style 002 trans I have,, so I have nothing to compare with.. The late 002 and 091's are not the same.

it seems as if the P plate is not sitting close enough to the TO bearing ..

Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:08 pm

towd wrote: heavy duty indicates it has stronger springs ...yes they were down and loose there pressure...

Those old style 3 finger pressure plates are shipped with square U plates under the arms. When you install it, the pressure comes off the arms and you remove them. That pressure plate pictured appears to still have them in.

Here is what they look like removed:

Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:38 pm

we covered the clips....

this problem,, would be as if... it was put together without the center ring... and a flat faced TO bearing... or think of it .. as if the engine where not bolted up tight, like sitting back 1/2 inch

Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:46 pm

One often overlooked item is the clutch cable "bowden tube"--
which puts a slight kink, and resulting drag on the cable.
Sometimes if the "sag" of the tube is incorrect, some problems as you describe may occur.

Just a thought, as most other clutch-related items were already discussed.

cheers.... 8)

Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:55 pm

yes,, I think both of us have replaced most everything... The PO replaced cable , B tube and cross shaft on mine ... I've been doing this crap for ever,,,

I did find that they did not put the snal ring back on the clutch arm ( cross shaft) and there was not room for it... I can not find a part 3 for that arm..

The arm on mine is the same as a bug ,, which starts with 131..

Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:40 pm

Look up Samba member Bruce, he's done a comparison on all the clutch levers and usually has an assortment for sale.

Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:04 pm

Here are all the clutch arms that were used on Type 1 gearboxes since 61:

The first arm #1 is the same as the one used in a Bus up to about 72. It was also used in the Bug to 72. The arm got longer in 73 in Bugs, but stayed the same in Busses. Part of the reason the Bug got the longer arm is because the clutch cover changed from the old type with coil springs to the new diaphragm type (your first pic above). These new diaphragm type clutches require less TO bearing travel, so they would tolerate a longer arm with the benefit of less pedal effort. I don't know if you could install the long arm on a Bus. The geometry of the pedal up front is a factor that I know nothing about.

Things to check:
The depth of the disc surface from the mounting face on your flywheel should be 21.0mm. Every used FW I have measured was out of spec. What happens is that clutch shops don't know this spec, so what they do is take their grinding wheel down to touch the disc surface, then they zero their machine. After they've cleaned up the disc surface, they take a reading on how much they removed. Then they move up to the shelf and remove the same amount. (some shops are so incompetent they don't even do this) The problem this creates is that the disc surface has been worn away over the years, and the depth has increased. When the shop grinds your FW the way I described, they are preserving that wear for the FW's next life. After it's been reground a few times they can get quite far off. Last time I had my FW reground, it was off by .75mm. The guy at the clutch shop was reluctant at first, but I was eventually able to get him to do it right. I only use original VW 30+ year old flywheels.

The next thing to check is the disc thickness. A few years ago there was a batch of discs on the market that were too thick. I can't remember what the thicknesses were, so you will have to do some investigating.

Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:27 pm

Bruce thanks,, I've looked and looked ,, but could never find this 22 mm....

In my case I may have a disc thats to thich...this one has been used,, but also keeps showing up in the used pile, where it has been for 30 years ....

I got pissed at this thing and have been cleaning it and replacing the battery box.. later today I MIGHT,, get back to the clutch deal...

I have 5 different arms in my collection,,, but have never seen the one with the holes.

Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:30 am

This Buses clutch finally works, after four full days of screwing with the damn thing ... My story goes like this.. Never think a part is good just because it looks good..

To get this solved,, I went ahead and used a Kennedy stage one plate ( 1700 lbs ) and a dankin super disc ( solid ) but still the OG TO bearing... even though the other P plates felt good ,, looked good,,, they not... only thing I can figure out is there is so much internal wear in the plates, That they do not release,, with full adjustment, The To Bearing move so far out that it hits the input shaft, Giving the peddle that hard feeling or the hard stop about 3/4" off the floor. Which could knock the bearing out of the forks and tear the Hell out of everything.

What stumped me,, is that I got this Bus broken ,, It came from a tweaker VW shop ,, Sold to a young kid,, That never did a thing to it.. daddy bought him a better Bus.

This is the Disc that was in the bus when I brought it home... from the looks of it, it was fairly new, along with the plate and bearing, Plus someone had put a cross shaft in, cable a bowden tube. oh and brake lines and Hoses, LOL.
[img][/img]

This is checking the thickness of the plates Hillbilly style ,,, on the left is the offender,, on the right a Kennedy ... They are the same height... The bench is off level...

[img][/img]

The two disc,, on the left is the one I had been trying,, still have no Idea if it was a problem, but for some reason it has been laying in the pile of good junk for years... the right is the new Dakine super

so to answer the OG posters question on the left a spring center,, on the right a solid.... The spring center takes up some of the such as you let the clutch out... out come is a much more comfortable start,,,

What I have in it now is more of a performance setup,, it should and will Handel over 150 Hp.... this bus if I use it will get a 2176

[img][/img]

This is the OG to me TO bearing,, I still have it in there.. it looks good and new,,, it has zero noise when you spin it,, I did oil it...BUT .. when I started the engine tonight and stepped on the clutch I could hear the bearing.. and I have to say the peddle doesn't feel right .. I have a little over the inch of free play,, maybe even 2 inches.. But I don't really feel the clutch pressure till I'm about half way down... a Kennedy 1700 lb plate is pretty stiff.

Oh these are heavy Duty pressure plates... in the 70's Kennedy did use the 3 finger style, they had to weld square bar to the face the keep the plate from warping ...

if you can try another plate...

Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:25 am

towd wrote: Bruce thanks,, I've looked and looked ,, but could never find this 22 mm.....
What's 22mm?

towd wrote:
I have 5 different arms in my collection,,, but have never seen the one with the holes.
The one with the holes is the same as the one without, except that I drilled a bunch of holes in it to make it lighter.

Here's some more info on the arms:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=473781

Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:18 am

LOL,,, got me 21 mm..

The flywheel on this motor did check out to be 21 mm on the nose.. I checked 3 others that were known to be good, they were 21.5, 21.5 and 22mm .. Then I checked a T4 flywheel is was a lot deeper.

All three Disc I used are 9 mm.. At Least now mine is working,, The goal was just to get this thing to a point that I can move it around..

The up side,, I found out how E 10 gas works for cleaning,,,,and that which in hours it will evaporate.. So I'm not blowing smoke about my car having 1/2 a tank,, letting it sit for two weeks and only having a 1/4 tank

I feel so much better,, knowing I'm doing my part in keeping the economy going