TheSamba.com :: View topic - Northern Westy owners: is the front heater enough?

Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:47 am

Like a lot of southern Vanagon owners, I pulled the rear heater - I love the extra space. But for those of you that live in genuinely cold climates, is the front heater adequate to keep the driver and co-pilot warm?

Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:49 am

I love my rear heater. It puts out a lot of heat and warms the van much faster than the front heater. I wouldn't want to not have it. I even use it in the summer going up long grades as extra insurance to keep the engine cooler. It drops the coolant temp fast when climbing hills.

Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:04 pm

PDXWesty wrote: I love my rear heater. It puts out a lot of heat and warms the van much faster than the front heater. I wouldn't want to not have it. I even use it in the summer going up long grades as extra insurance to keep the engine cooler. It drops the coolant temp fast when climbing hills.
I totally agree with that. That rear heater has saved my @ss many times chugging up long hills in second gear in utah and Colorado.

Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:47 pm

Well if you need to dump heat via the heaters under any conditions, you understand of course that you have other cooling system issues.

To Andrew's question: the front heating will warm up the front occupants by itself, but they will be comfortable in a fraction of the time if the rear heater is switched on too, so the mass of air in the cabin isn't sucking off the warmth from the front. You can live without it, I can't say I use it all that much, but when it's butt-freezing cold you bet I switch on that rear fan too. In really severe cold, like below-zero, I don't think you would ever feel comfy up front without the rear assist; there's just too much glass back there to shed heat.

It's indispensible for drying wet shoes and such.

Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:58 pm

Without the rear heater you'd better stay south of the Smith and Wesson Line in cold weather.

Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:05 pm

My westy is an air cooled with a TDI swapped in, no rear heater, but stock front heater from a WC vanagon, the heat is fine IMO.

We have plenty of -20* F here, but I don't typically drive the westy when its below zero, but right at zero* F I find the front heater to be fine, yea, it doesn't heat the van up "right now", but when it is zero* out you should really be wearing enough clothing to be comfortable for 5-10 minutes while the van is warming up.

On longer trips when its zero* out I can shed layers and be completely comfortable in a long sleeve t shirt and regular old normal pants with no long johns, heck, once the coolant is up to temp I can bust out flip flops with the floor heat rockin'! Vanagon hot foot has its advantages 8)

Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:15 pm

My cooling system does function properly and is in very good shape, but with the automatic tranny, I've noticed my needle climb to 3/4 when I climb long grades in the summer. It seems cooler is always better when talking engine temps, so if I turn on the rear heater when this happens, my needle drops to just above the warning light which is more normal. It's just where I have a comfort zone when pushing the engine in the summer months. I have never overheated regardless of having the heater on or off. For me, it's just an extra amount of heat rejection I like having at my disposal.

Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:49 pm

While parked when temps are very low the front heater will not always be enough. If you're mountain driving then you can switch it on while climbing to warm up the cabin and switch it off during descents to help keep engine temp up (which will help keep the windshield defrosted). And if your window seals or heater vents are leaky then its a lifesaver.

Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:17 pm

<<Like a lot of southern Vanagon owners, I pulled the rear heater - I love the extra space. But for those of you that live in genuinely cold climates, is the front heater adequate to keep the driver and co-pilot warm>>

No.

In zero and below weather it sure is a big plus to have the rear cabin area heated too.

Most of--I'd say 90% of the front heater boxes nee some TLC, ( a new motor, a new core, new heater door seals installed) so the front heater is not capable of performing to it's maximum output capacity.
You'll have more leaking cold air up front than the front heater can overcome.

The rear heater is a big bonus--in spades during the winter.

Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:13 pm

This is so relative to ones own opinion, climate, etc. Unlike TK, I never use the rear heater. Matter of fact, I yanked mine last summer. The front is more than adequate for me, even here at 9,500 feet in the cold, below zero winters of the Colorado Rockies.

Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:57 pm

"This is so relative to ones own opinion, climate, etc."

So true. That said, I am in Alaska(39 years and counting) and deal with subzero temperatures every Winter. I use my rear heater daily for roughly 7 months per year, it definitely helps. The problem with the front heater is that there is no way, as designed, to block off outside air. Thus in subzero weather the heater core is constantly getting blasted with cold air. I am in the process of designing a controllable flapper door for the air intake that will allow me to limit the amount of outside air entering my van. In the mean time I have blocked off the outside air and made a recirculating air system using the outlets for the dash face vents. I am also going to install the late model rear quarter windows that have air vents to stimulate air flow through the van. As of now my recirculating air system is providing warmer air but I am having a small condensation problem on the windows. Hopefully the quarter windows and controllable intake air system will remedy this.

Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:36 pm

AK_runner,

Sounds like you have quite a project on your hands. Post some pictures !

I remember seeing someone create a flap that blocks the outside air from coming across the front heater core. I searched but couldn't find the pictures and link.

Anyone remember that one?

Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:26 am

There is a guy in Canada that converted an aircooled to water boxer. He added the front heater and either made a door or block off from the outside just behind the grill. His name is Neil and he posts on the Vanagon list, he maybe whom you are thinking of. He has a website with various photo's including some re modifying the heater air intake system. It was from this that I took inspiration for my design. The opening he chose to make a door for is easier to get to, you do not have to remove the dash and heater for access. The down side is that it has compound angles and is a tough area to work. Pulling the heater box takes time but gives you a simple, flat opening to build a door for.

As for my project I do not currently have any photo's to share but will take some when I pull the dash to make the door assembly.

Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:19 am

deprivation wrote: Like a lot of southern Vanagon owners, I pulled the rear heater - I love the extra space. But for those of you that live in genuinely cold climates, is the front heater adequate to keep the driver and co-pilot warm?

It's -4C (24F) this morning, i still use the van until the white shi* will invade my life :-) My front heater is new (like about everything on my van) and produce way less heat than a older semi clogged core. Older core get hotter and produce more heat.... funny. Anyway, i have no rear heater and on top the Subaru produce a little bit less heat in the heater lines. So it's cold. I used the Propex this morning as aux heater. The Propex give a boost of about 5C.

Now i wonder about (reading the thread) blocking half of the air intake in front of the van! Mmmm.... i think i will try that right now.

Ben

Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:07 am

I don't get this --
Who care's if it's a Subaru, or a Detroit Diesel--the engine has a preset temp at the thermostat, and will run at that temperature.

That's what your going to get at the heater core, unless you've got something screwed up in your heater box,(bad leaking heater door seals, a inoperable thermostat or a restriction in the heater water lines)
I'd be taking a look real close at one of the above mentioned.

A new core will allow more of that heated engine water to flow unrestricted, offering more heat than the old half plugged up core you replaced would put out--what you just described make's aboslutley no sence--

Maybe your heater valve isn't opening all the way--which is Vanagon weakness in the heating department--

Here's two simple ways to restrict the the cold air intake--

Black duct tape works good--and you can't see it behind the grill--
Or after I found out that the duct tape cover worked well, I made a velcroed on Sunbrella cover for the intake with a adjustable opening.
As it gets warmer out you can open itup a bit to allow more fresh air into the heater box.

During the summer if you want your AC system to be able to operate at it's max without fighting the hot air that sneaks past the heater door's--leave the intake cover on--no hot air from the outside will get into the van via the air intake vent.

You don't have to re-invent the heater box by manufacturing mechanical door's for it--just cover it up with duct tape to a easy to make cover.

Want to stop some more cold frigid air from getting to you from the front end of the Van?

Make a winter front for the top grill.

This is a very common item for class 8 trucks out on the winter highway's--and folks up in Bobby Zimmermanland--where it gets down to -50 below plus--

Winter fronts for cars trucks are not unusual at all up in Northern Minnesota----

Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:59 am

Terry Kay wrote: I don't get this --
Who care's if it's a Subaru, or a Detriot Diesel--the engine has a preset temp at the thermostat, and will run at that temperature.

That's what your going to get at the heater core, unless you've got something screwed up in your heater box,( bad leaking heater door seals, a inoperable thermostat or a restriction in the heater water lines--
I'd be taking a look real close at one of the above mentioned.

A new core will allow more of that heated engine water to flow unrestricted, offering more heat than the old half plugged up core you replaced would put out--this one make's aboslutley no sence--

Maybe your heater valve isn't opening all the way--which is Vanagon weakness in the heating department--

Of course you don't get this.... :-)

The Subaru... or should i say the Vanaru cooling - heating system work in a different way. First, the Subaru car itself as no valve system, the heating system is always flowing through the heater core, a flap system control the flow of air, hot or cold. The Subaru car use the hot line of the heater to give feedback the engine / thermostat, this is the way the car his design. And it's not only Subaru, other company use the same system So, on a vanagon - Subi, if you would close both heater core you would risk overheating the engine. So it mean that the rear heater need to stay open all the time so coolant can circulate. That same line is the one that tell "partially" to the thermostat what temp is the engine. If the rear heater is remove you need to join the rear section (the 2 "T") together. That explain why there is a little bit less heat in the front.
If i had the rear heater i would have about the same heat as a stock Vanagon. But i have 2 bypass in the back.

And on the engine:

Even if we modify the engine cooling manifold itself so it give a direct hot flow / signal to the thermostat (picture above), the engine still need a feed back from the heater line, if the mod to the coolant manifold would be a bigger bypass, the van would not heat (inside) properly in colder weather. That is why we use heat from the manifold and the heater line. The engine can live at some point without coolant running in the heater line but it's not enough in hotter summer weather. Here is a little more info on the system:
http://www.benplace.com/subaru_ej_25.htm

This is also why so many DIY have real overheating problem with their newly done Subaru conversion.

As to my system being fully functional, don't worry about that.

The after market front heater core have less serpentine, they are less dense. They flow faster than OEM core.

As to partially clogged heater core being less hot.... i was thinking like you before until i had to fix a strange overheating / leaking front heater core. After changing this one, i lost half of the heat. And no, it's not the valve.

I hope that answer a few of your question Mr. TK.

Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:08 am

Great post, Ben.

Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:18 am

Interesting---

Reason # 2 why not to run a Subaru--no heat.

Benny--
Maximize the water flow through a core--be it OEM or aftermarket (and this depends on who's core you choose to use--Modine is a perfect example of a good product--skip the XYZ Chinese crap isn't the answer) , you'll get a bunch more heat out of a new core than an old plugged up one.

Mo' Flo--mo' hot coolant.
Restrict the flow--you get less.
And yea--if your running a Mexican core with 1/2" tubes--the coolant will run though the core faster than the fan can catch the hot water..

Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:12 am

Terry Kay wrote:
Mo' Flo--mo' hot coolant.
Restrict the flow--you get less.

I may have a partially blocked heater line over the tank, or maybe your right, something may be wrong with he new heater valve. Maybe it's the missing foam seal around the core itself. Maybe it's a mix of all that + the above post about Subaru heating system. Of course the cable / lever is maximize for summer condition as to i make sure it close properly.

To get back to the original post....
A Vanagon is a big van, the front heater is simply not enough for cold temperature. I normally don't drive my van that late in the season. But i have no choice right now (3 time a week), and that for the next 2 weeks.

Now i have to put an engine in that bang up Syncro i have outside, it as 2 heater and it's 4WD. Snow is coming, i can feel it.

I'm bringing the van in later to at least block the air scoop, i will have a look at the heater valve adjustment.

I'm still freezing my butt.

Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:52 am

I have the EJ22 engine in mine, and just leave the rear heater open. No fancy bypass. The van runs a bit hotter with the heater open (weird, I know) but the heat it produces is great. It is enough for to keep it 70F inside while 20F outside. Original heater core.

I kept the rear heater because my rear passengers like it. :) I have a Propex HS2800 as well but only run that to warm up a cold van or when camping.