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Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:26 am

Thanks for all the input guys! Some of it was pretty funny actually. I don't think it will be slammed on earlies or baja 'ed.

On the subjet of doors, yes the vent windows have been added and the scrapers also may be of other make. The doorhandles come from a Volga. I would really like to see the doorhandle area from the inside. See what has been done there. The presence or the lack of windshield defrosters in the corners would also help to confirm it's identity as the vw38 did not have them. The defrosters were added as a part of a general re-design for the vw39.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:26 am

kdf38@netzero.net wrote: It looks like the entire doors were replaced except the hinges. There
is a door lock button above the door handle. There may be id numbers
on the front and rear hoods.

Mike

RichOakley wrote: The arguments for this shell being a VW38 (or VW39) are really compelling. We really need to see pictures of the insides of the doors. The door lock handle was near the middle of the door and level with the window winder handle on VW38s and VW39s.

I think the doors are original.
the lock buttons were not introduced until '67. By then the doors had enlarged window openings and had the slanted vent wings. With all of the other mods to the door I wouldn't be surprised that they would have incorporated lock buttons.

Why would someone go to the trouble of removing the hinges from the doors and installing them on the replacement doors, since they are riveted to the doors?

Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:28 am

hard to say,but the black beetle is not a 38 model its a 43 model,its sitting on a small truck chassis,the rear apron is odd looking,and check out that gas cap on the side,this thing has been modified to hell the door handles look like old ford sedan handles,well its a odd find indeed ,look for tags and start identifing.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:37 am

dr.bones wrote: hard to say,but the black beetle is not a 38 model its a 43 model,its sitting on a small truck chassis,the rear apron is odd looking,and check out that gas cap on the side,this thing has been modified to hell the door handles look like old ford sedan handles,well its a odd find indeed ,look for tags and start identifing.

The most strange there isn't any number... :roll: why?

Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:45 am

splitjunkie wrote:

I think the doors are original.
With all of the other mods to the door I wouldn't be surprised that they would have incorporated lock buttons.

I agree, This thing has been modernized to death. When adding the Volga doorhandles, they must have changed out all the locking mechanism as well. The location of the inner doorhandles (or evidence of their former location) should confirm if the door is pre-KdF.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:46 am

Look at the door more carefully. It has an extra seam, so is it a prototype door?

Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:46 am

franklinunes wrote:

The most strange there isn't any number... :roll: why?

The pan is gone so that number is history, and the other one might have been cut off during some of it's modifications. Since that is a front engined frame underneath it I am sure the ears in front that would have the number on it are long gone.

There are lots of unanswered questions that really can only be answered once we have access to more pictures or better yet when Undis can see it in person and take pictures.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:11 pm

virtanen wrote: Look at the door more carefully. It has an extra seam, so is it a prototype door?

OK, these kind of observations are very helpful, thanks!

Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:49 pm

... and i thought my split was highly abused.. well this one is far worse :cry:

i am curious how the dash is... from what i see there isn't much left of it.
the doors seem to be the originals, as someone said why keep the hinges when you can unbolt the door completely?

what do you guys think about a resto path? there's so few parts left, the og pan gone.. all mechanics gone.. certainly its value decreased and mostly because no numbers are present to certify exactly its place in the VW history.

will a NOS chassis be ok for this? or just about any chassis would be more than enough for a resurrection?

i have a friend that has a BMW327 from 1939 (only 1376 units before the war) missing lots of parts and after some 10 years still has a lot to buy.. with this pre kdf i guess the chance of finding parts is next to null..

Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:59 pm

eurodub wrote: ... and i thought my split was highly abused.. well this one is far worse :cry:

i am curious how the dash is... from what i see there isn't much left of it.
the doors seem to be the originals, as someone said why keep the hinges when you can unbolt the door completely?

what do you guys think about a resto path? there's so few parts left, the og pan gone.. all mechanics gone.. certainly its value decreased and mostly because no numbers are present to certify exactly its place in the VW history.

will a NOS chassis be ok for this? or just about any chassis would be more than enough for a resurrection?

i have a friend that has a BMW327 from 1939 (only 1376 units before the war) missing lots of parts and after some 10 years still has a lot to buy.. with this pre kdf i guess the chance of finding parts is next to null..

I guess an early Kubel chassis and early Kubel engine would be the way to go. Everything else would have to be fabricated.

Doesn't Christian have a VW38 chassis or was it an earlier one (VW30 perhaps)?

Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:13 pm

All I can say....AMAZING . :shock: This is an ugly modified early car.
Shocked to see it ugly, shocked to see it modified and shocked that such a rare beast is found.

There are indeed some issues that seems to point at a prototype or pre productioncar made in the garage in Stuttgart.
You can see the bar that is used to hold the enginecover open. It is hinged on the left side and is in sort of holder on the right side.
On the original pict you see the bar.
The seam in the door, the corners of the front hood and engine cover, the brake light pressing, the engine cover itself....
Does the owner or Volga butcher had anything saved??

The chassis christian owns is from a VW 30, nr 27 to be precisely. The car in the windtunnel. 8)

Thanks for sharing this UNDIS.

Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:23 pm

What exactly would "earlies" be in this case?
wooden spoked wagon wheels??

The metalwork around the front and rear windows looks remarkably smooth concidering the butchery done. I cannot wait to see dash and interior details..... :o

RichOakley wrote: eurodub wrote: ... and i thought my split was highly abused.. well this one is far worse :cry:

i am curious how the dash is... from what i see there isn't much left of it.
the doors seem to be the originals, as someone said why keep the hinges when you can unbolt the door completely?

what do you guys think about a resto path? there's so few parts left, the og pan gone.. all mechanics gone.. certainly its value decreased and mostly because no numbers are present to certify exactly its place in the VW history.

will a NOS chassis be ok for this? or just about any chassis would be more than enough for a resurrection?

i have a friend that has a BMW327 from 1939 (only 1376 units before the war) missing lots of parts and after some 10 years still has a lot to buy.. with this pre kdf i guess the chance of finding parts is next to null..

I guess an early Kubel chassis and early Kubel engine would be the way to go. Everything else would have to be fabricated.

Doesn't Christian have a VW38 chassis or was it an earlier one (VW30 perhaps)?

Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:28 pm

Really really interesting. Some details indeed point strongly way way back in VW history. I hope it ends up in hands that are able to treat it in the right way. I would not be able to get it back into its former glory but I´m almost sure the ones that could, have already tried to get closer in touch with it. Am I right UNDIS?

Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:18 pm

:shock: WOW.

From the photos, it certainly looks to be a real pre-KDF car. Further investigation will reveal whether from 38 or 39 vintage.

Such a shame that only this of the body remains but I guess considering what happened between 38/39 and 1945 if it is pre-KDF amazing it survived at all. Although I guess all of those mods were carried out sometime after the end of the war.

As for restoration, forgive my ignorance but can I ask if any other cars from VW38 or VW39 exist?

If not (and perhaps regardless) then the only sensible thing to do it is to restore it to as close a factory condition as possible. Shouldn't be too difficult, in terms of complexity the bodywork of a Beetle is relatively simple so after sourcing an early pan, engine and box most of the other items can be fabricated. Just takes time and money, but boy, would it be worth it!

Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:19 pm

:shock: WOW, Very neat find for sure! I would treat that car like an archiologist going over EVERYTHING with a fine tooth comb. Take hundreds of clear hi resolution digital photos before doing anything else. Next I would study the photos. You will be suprised how you find something else after looking at the same picture a hundred times! Remember that once it's taken apart, you cant go back.
It would be interesting to eventually see what the body looks like with zero paint and only metal showing. I'm sure it would reveal a lot in how it was made and altered over the years.
If it turns out to be what we hope it is, it will take a MAJOR dedication of studying and then restoration with no time limits to do it as correct as possible! .... but what fun too!
Excellent & really interesting vehicle! :D

Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:24 pm

The bottom of the engine lid is flat--is that stock or modified?
And I gotta say that from the looks of the car in the garden--who ever grafted the rear window and extra medal over the vents seems to have done a pretty good job!

What a great find tho!!!

Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:28 pm

usariemen wrote: I hope it ends up in hands that are able to treat it in the right way. I would not be able to get it back into its former glory but I´m almost sure the ones that could, have already tried to get closer in touch with it. Am I right UNDIS?
Don't think they will have it restored before 26th of June :wink:

This must be the most exciting 'barnfind' for some time now...! If this car (or what's left of it) proves to be authentic, I really hope it can be brought back to its original shape as close as possible ...!

Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:40 pm

Just note that the cabrio that you show being pushed into the garage surevived up to at least 45 or later as it shows up in pix with Hirst standing by it at the factory in Barber's book. The plate is different but the rear pf the body is exactly the same.

But boy what a find. Get together with Chris and his 38 chassis.
Eric

Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:52 pm

It looks like they used a section of VW roof to make that. There is a flat section on the drip rail above the drivers side rear window [that looks to be well above where the window was grafted in] and an odd bump-out in the rear wheel well. Is the bump-out stock on the early cars?

Mike

Patty B. wrote: The bottom of the engine lid is flat--is that stock or modified?
And I gotta say that from the looks of the car in the garden--who ever grafted the rear window and extra medal over the vents seems to have done a pretty good job!

What a great find tho!!!

Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:04 pm

desh wrote: Regardless of what it is, vw38, KdF, it is sad for me to see something that so historically important, ruined.

Regardless of what happens with the car, if you buy it, the owner restores it, keep us posted on what happens.

I understand completely what you mean, but part of the whole KdF story is that even when KdFs were new they were so often altered, put on different chassis or turned into something else as different needs came up. Shortage of materials helped cars "get altered" instead of building new ones too. That's one of the reasons they are not like other cars. The fact that it was altered so much and still around for any of us to eventually find (in any state at all) is amazing! :D

In a weird way, the people who altered them over and over again kept it around and out of the scapyard.