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Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:55 am

Quote: how high above the beam do think you will have to be to prevent interaction between the arms and the sway bar? is there enough space halfway between the bottom of the trunk and the top of the control arms travel to make it work? do you think that will require adjusting the stock gas tank location? do you think that it could be tied in to the beam unistrut style (ubolts and tubing not actual unistrut and ridgid clamps) sorry "to the plumber everything looks like pipe". Would all of this require reshaping the fender wells to clearance the bar? I guess that is another advantage of the body lift, by the way how much lift?

I have not gotten that far yet. I have just finished the basic pan, installed the adjusters in the beam, installed new beam bearings and balljoints and hung the beam with caster shims back on the pan. Right now I am focussing on building the tranny.

I had to wait on hardened keys to come in (thought I had some, but used them in a drag tranny build) and another super diff, (did not like the one I bought, too soft, waiting on a bugpack unit to come in). So when I finish the tranny and get it in so I have a rolling pan, I will return to the front suspension.

My body lift is the POS 3 inch style that no one likes. I will modify it also to be strong and acceptable. I will post pictures as my build goes a differant way than the usual build does.

Quote: you should have mentioned your baja is going to be a "baja looker" in the first place. if your going to be terrorizing the streets and leaving the dirt alone and your only plans for the front end is to even it out with the rear (which you can probably do with just tires) then you have every reason to run a sway bar. but on the flip side you have absolutely no reason to remove it. seriously run that aftermarket bar and forget about it. if you have no dreams of wild off road action nothings going break on the front end and the sway bars not going to limit you in any way.

You still missed the point. In the same way that the guy cuts a rare split window to make a baja, I will make an exotic, quickly disconnectable sway bar for my Baja. Because I want to. And even if it will be a "baja looker", it will go over some really nasty off-road stuff, just not where it will get scratched by brush and the rough stuff will get crawled over not at high speed like the desert runners like to do. So I want the dual sport abality of both full suspension articulation and road manners.

Like I stated early on RLP, It is MY money and MY labor and MY fab shop, why not suggest how to do it instead of how not to do it?

I am all for the KISS principal. That is why I do not want the long travel suspensions with exotic shocks and spindles that are not avaliable at the local junk yard for pennies. My sway bar idea is exotic, but if I break the sway bar mounts while off-roading, I can still drive to work the next day.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:18 pm

Good thread. Excellent ideas and debates.

Anyone fab one of these yet?

I like the over-the-trailing arm sway bar, but am a bit concerned it wouldn't fit on a Thing (I've been burned several times with bug aftermarket parts not fitting a Thing).

Heading out on my first trail run with the Thing next week (T4 motor, 4 wheel disk brakes, stiffened suspension) and have never really liked the sway bar mounts I have - I busted one a few months back, I think it was the EMPI stamp that weakened it. :wink: I'm thinking of pulling the bar altogether then working out how to reinstall with better mounts and/or a disconnect.

A Thing is a bit heavier than a bug, and I do crazy stuff on road with my car. Even with the front HD sway bar, I get some good body sway.

Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:30 am

After bouncing around the trails and smacking the sway bar half a dozen times (love the Thing front end - cleared a lot of rocks, but not all) the EMPI mounts gave way leaving the bushings somewhere on the trail. After the trails, I pulled the bar off entirely (it was just barely sitting there) and drove home 300 miles on the freeway without it. I didn't notice a change in handling whatsoever.

I'm pretty certain that the sway bar will help in a high speed turn where the car may be in danger of going on two wheels. For most off-road buggies - even those driven on the highway with some regularity - I don't think it'll make much difference. I still want to install one as I often DO make those maneuvers on pavement.

For me, I'm going to look into the "over the top" style sway bar, then simply unbolt it prior to any off-road trip.

Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:55 am

I use an over the top style sway bar like you mentioned on the front. I am interested in this thread as I like to play in the dirt as well as the pavement - and I like to play hard. :D

I'm still trying to find a good set up for the dirt (hardpack to 6" silt) to get me through the corners quicker. I'm using a 20mm bar (adjusted to the end) that works good on the blacktop but is not real good for the dirt. If I remove it I get way too much sway as speed and control is an issue so I have to change my style too much - loose too much speed etc.

So any ideas to get more lateral front grip in the dirt?

Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:42 pm

Ian Epperson wrote: After bouncing around the trails and smacking the sway bar half a dozen times (love the Thing front end - cleared a lot of rocks, but not all) the EMPI mounts gave way leaving the bushings somewhere on the trail. After the trails, I pulled the bar off entirely (it was just barely sitting there) and drove home 300 miles on the freeway without it. I didn't notice a change in handling whatsoever.

I'm pretty certain that the sway bar will help in a high speed turn where the car may be in danger of going on two wheels. For most off-road buggies - even those driven on the highway with some regularity - I don't think it'll make much difference. I still want to install one as I often DO make those maneuvers on pavement.

For me, I'm going to look into the "over the top" style sway bar, then simply unbolt it prior to any off-road trip.

I didn't install a swaybar on my Thing, since it interfered with my front skid plate. I'm nervous, however, about driving this vehicle at speed, with it's combination of narrow track, tall-ish tires, and alot of added weight up high from my cage, spare tire, and junk I might carry on the rack.

I'm thinking some of this stuff might be usefull create an over the top sway bar. It looks possible to make something very adjustable. It looks like 1" is the smallest bar diameter, but with the long arms, I think you could get an acceptable rate. I haven't actually priced this stuff yet, but I'm sure it would be pretty expensive.

http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybars.htm

http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybar_Arms.htm

Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:48 pm

For this run, the sway bar WAS my skid plate. I think I'll have to fashion some kind of real plate when changing the bar. That or miss ALL the rocks.

I had it up to 85 MPH yesterday on the freeway. Handled just fine. Caster shims and stiffer springs go a long way to keeping it stable.

Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:19 pm

Desert-Craft came up with something cool...

Check this out: http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=938486#938486

Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:50 pm

Nice. Google says that's a Skyjacker:

http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/tech/0608_4wd_skyjacker_selectable_stabilizer_bar/index.html

Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:13 pm

That locking swaybar Zancat has looks like its pretty short, it might cause some handling issues when its locked up.

Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:41 am

runslikeapenguin wrote: That locking swaybar Zancat has looks like its pretty short, it might cause some handling issues when its locked up.

Care to explain why a short sway bar would cause handling problems?

Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:41 am

joescoolcustoms wrote: runslikeapenguin wrote: That locking swaybar Zancat has looks like its pretty short, it might cause some handling issues when its locked up.

Care to explain why a short sway bar would cause handling problems?

Looking at the first pic - If that is the right rate bar for that car then it would not cause handling problems. Hard to tell from the pic how fat that bar is though.

That locking bar is pretty cool. It has me thinking now for my on/off road application.

Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:58 am

brent bousman wrote: I use an over the top style sway bar like you mentioned on the front. I am interested in this thread as I like to play in the dirt as well as the pavement - and I like to play hard. :D
The Aircooled.net sway bar page doesn't show how it mounts to the body. How did you mount yours? Any pics?

brent bousman wrote: I'm still trying to find a good set up for the dirt (hardpack to 6" silt) to get me through the corners quicker. I'm using a 20mm bar (adjusted to the end) that works good on the blacktop but is not real good for the dirt. If I remove it I get way too much sway as speed and control is an issue so I have to change my style too much - loose too much speed etc.
Have you tried running in dirt with the sway bar in place? As I mentioned above, I did the entire run with the sway bar on. (I think I lost the bushings in the last 20 miles or so - that's when it started making noise). I was expecting issues with one wheel holding up the other, but it crawled just fine.

Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:49 am

Yeah with the bar hooked up in the dirt with the front adjusted to the end hole it understeers like a pig at 35-40mph on a 90 or 180 degree turn. This is with or with out the rear bar attached. Just too much bar for Rallycross - which is what I do. I suppose it might be OK if you you are in a buggy and not going balls to the wall.

The whiteline front bar clamps to the lower part the beam.
Here are some installation pics from someone:
http://www.vwbughead.com/suspension/whiteline_front.html
On the end link he has the bolt backwards as it will rub on the shock on the rebound. I did not have the rotating issue that he had - maybe because I really torqued the nuts down.

Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:11 am

runslikeapenguin wrote: That locking swaybar Zancat has looks like its pretty short, it might cause some handling issues when its locked up.

I'd say theres more craftsmanship and know how exhibited in that one photo than I've seen in the last 50 build threads. I'm in awe.

Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:13 am

brent bousman wrote: The whiteline front bar clamps to the lower part the beam.
Here are some installation pics from someone:
http://www.vwbughead.com/suspension/whiteline_front.html
On the end link he has the bolt backwards as it will rub on the shock on the rebound. I did not have the rotating issue that he had - maybe because I really torqued the nuts down.
Perfect! Thanks!

Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:27 am

Ian Epperson wrote: brent bousman wrote: The whiteline front bar clamps to the lower part the beam.
Here are some installation pics from someone:
http://www.vwbughead.com/suspension/whiteline_front.html
On the end link he has the bolt backwards as it will rub on the shock on the rebound. I did not have the rotating issue that he had - maybe because I really torqued the nuts down.
Perfect! Thanks!

To bad for me. It looks like that bar would interfere with my hook stops :cry:

Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:48 am

Chad1376 wrote: Ian Epperson wrote: brent bousman wrote: The whiteline front bar clamps to the lower part the beam.
Here are some installation pics from someone:
http://www.vwbughead.com/suspension/whiteline_front.html
On the end link he has the bolt backwards as it will rub on the shock on the rebound. I did not have the rotating issue that he had - maybe because I really torqued the nuts down.
Perfect! Thanks!

To bad for me. It looks like that bar would interfere with my hook stops :cry:

Yeah too bad your stop is right in the way. Nice hook stops though...

I was thinking I could make that Whiteline end link a quick release by removing the top bolt on the bar and replacing with a clevis pin. At that point I would have to hook the bar end on something so it didn't slap around while it was unhooked. I need to come up with some small fabrication for that part.

Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:01 pm

Chad1376 wrote: runslikeapenguin wrote: That locking swaybar Zancat has looks like its pretty short, it might cause some handling issues when its locked up.

I'd say theres more craftsmanship and know how exhibited in that one photo than I've seen in the last 50 build threads. I'm in awe.

Yeah, Zancat is the man 8)

Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:38 pm

joescoolcustoms wrote: runslikeapenguin wrote: That locking swaybar Zancat has looks like its pretty short, it might cause some handling issues when its locked up.

Care to explain why a short sway bar would cause handling problems?

A bar that short is likely to have a very high spring rate to it which would lend the front end to under steering especially with how thin the front tires are and the lack of weight up front. But that's not to say it cant be fixed with adjustment. Even if the bar is pretty small in OD and has a fairly soft rate it would still give a pretty quick load transfer. Only a test run would tell for sure.

Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:03 pm

runslikeapenguin wrote: joescoolcustoms wrote: runslikeapenguin wrote: That locking swaybar Zancat has looks like its pretty short, it might cause some handling issues when its locked up.

Care to explain why a short sway bar would cause handling problems?

A bar that short is likely to have a very high spring rate to it which would lend the front end to under steering especially with how thin the front tires are and the lack of weight up front. But that's not to say it cant be fixed with adjustment. Even if the bar is pretty small in OD and has a fairly soft rate it would still give a pretty quick load transfer. Only a test run would tell for sure.

So, it sounds like your theory negates the length issue. It is just a spring rate issue. Same issue no matter where the placement is or what length it is or what diameter it is. It is just matching the rate up to the suspension and tires for the road driven on.