TheSamba.com :: View topic - Are Dune-Buggy's really a Kit Car? Is a Kit Car really a Kit

Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:39 pm

I use to think that a Kit Car is more like a Factory Five Cobra. You get a complete set of instructions and 95% of the build is a no brain-er.
When you build a dune buggy, you might be lucky to find a body and chassis manufacturer, but you are not going to get a detailed set of plans. Maybe this is not the case with one of the new Manxster's. I am not sure that any of the so called Kit Cars have been completely detailed out on the build process where you did not have to go to your own school of ideas on how to make it work.

Gary0302 and I spoke a few days ago and kind of brought up this in conversation. A dune buggy is kind of a basic idea thanks to Bruce Meyers first fiberglass creation. We use to know that it was going to have a VW Pan, and a VW or Corvair air cooled motor. None of this may be true anymore. The only thing that remains the same is that when someone asks me if my Dune Buggy is a Kit Car, my first answer will be no. My second answer in some form or fashion will be that I have taken a lot of different parts and made them work together. My DB will be what I think a DB should be and if they look at another one, they may look similar but how we both got to the finished product is a different story.

Where I am going with this is that I give a big thumbs up to everyone who even starts out on a project like this. I don't care if you never complete it, you are way a head of all those that never even had whatever it takes to get started.

Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:57 pm

I think in the broadest sense of the word that buggies should be considered kits, as you are using a donor chassis and drivetrain, purchase the re-body and supply parts. The Manxter also qualifies as this, since it too relies on a VW chassis. Even on the website they list the parts of the car as "kit" http://www.meyersmanx.com/manxter2+2.shtml . Calling the car is dune buggy is just the generic name for the style of car, whether it's a Manx or Spatz or whatever. Older model kits have their own styles and directions of course (Sterling, Avenger, et.al.)
Todays modern kits like the FFR cars should also be considered kits, since they can be either assembled by the factory or in your own garage (but don't tell a Cobra owner that it's 'just a kit' :lol: ). And not all of todays kits are complete down to the wire, frequently there are quite a few things that need to be sourced for the build, it's just a different level of build due to different drivetrains, electronics and the like.

Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:08 pm

I've always considered a Dune Buggy to be a 're-body' rather than a kit build. I know Manxes were at the forefront of the kitcar industry but I think I'd expect a kitcar to have its own chassis these days.

Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:17 pm

When I was a kid you put together a kit. All the pieces were there and you had instructions to go with it to make it happen. I just think calling what we do a kit car is in some way a diservice to what we are able to do.
I don't know what would be a better term, but to many when they say a kit car, they cannot really understand what it takes to build one. At face value it looks like an easy thing to do. I know I have done many different types of restorations, recreations, etc.. When I say I built a street rod or had a custom bike built, they understand what went into the construction.
I just find it interesting when my neighbors talk about what I do.

Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:26 pm

I believe much has to do with the term "kit car". Just hearing that brings up the horrid images of poorly constructed kits. A more apt term might be 'component car' (or special construction, but that doesn't flow as well). By calling the build a component car, you avoid the stigma of the term 'kit'. When I had my Sterling, only the guys who knew what it was called it a kit. When asked, I always referred to it as a component car, and the invariable response was 'oh, cool, I know that kit cars were usually crap' or along those lines.

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:38 pm

yeah, it's a kit car. the manx came in a variety of packages from basic to all the parts needed. i have a copy of the original instructions upstairs. just like a big model. go step by step, put the ppieces together and go.

i think what you are taking about it the customization that goes beyond the original bbasic kit and that can be done on any cars. but that would be over and above the original kit build.

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:53 pm

I like the concept of a component car, working in education I can tell you the term Special has gained new meaning. Lets hope we don't fit in that category for our ' Dune Buggy Therapy'. :)

I didn't build too many plastic models as a kid but always found fun things to build from the remaining parts, ( many kits include 2 or 3 possible outcomes and include the parts in the kits ) I think many of the folks who are master modelers step far beyond the instructions, even cross pollinating kits in the creation of thier art.

I see a lot of that here on the Samba, true automotive art. Williams A's mid engine buggy build (Wow), Glasser's benchmark build, Aqua's awesome machines, Mongo's ultimate survivor cage, the list goes on and on, too many folks with really wonderful examples of what can be done.

Kits? only to the folks that have no understanding at all and think there is a factory out there pumping our speed buggy cartoon clone cars. A cursory examination will immediatly expose the fact that there is no 'mold' here, (pardon the pun) lots of individuality (personality?) in every car.

Fiberglass Dune Buggy decribes a genre of hobby car that most autophiles understand, if interested and reasonably appreciative I'll engage the conversation. I'll smile and thank folks for thinking my car is cute or cool. Either way it's part of the fun. I think Murzi hit the nail on the head when he suggested we enjoy the build, if it is ever done we'd need to start over. I want to build as much of it as I can pull off and appreciate what I can bring to life. That's the meat of this category of car for me.

Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:03 pm

I can accept the term "Kit Car" if every part was purchased and then bolted on. As soon as you fabricate something it becomes a custom in my eyes. If it is a "kit" then I made the "kit" :D

My build (and thanks for the kudos gr8cobbler) was all about me being able to say I built the car. Built is the key word. I did also assemble the car as you would with a "kit" but I feel I did much more than that.

Interesting you should mention model building gr8cobbler. So many terms apply. Box stock- building the kit right out of the box, kit bashing -using more than one kit to build a car, and scratch building are some of the terms used in model building.
I feel that model building for me helped a lot in the build of my car. I'm one of those guys that takes a hunk of plastic and makes something from it. I've been published and won many competitions. It was model building that filled the desire to be building something automotive when the funds just weren't there to build a full sized vehicle.

Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a "kit" built buggy. Not everyone has the tools to do a "scratch build". Heck I didn't either and that is where part of the funds went to. I can appreciate all forms of a built. Even someone that just bought one completed. While that's not for me I can appreciate someone wanting one and who doesn't have the time, tools or maybe the skills to build one. Why shouldn't they be able to own one.

As for the term Dune Buggy. I can't help but compare the term to a Ski-Doo. Have you ever went up to a Arctic cat owner and said "nice Skidoo"? You well get immediately corrected and will be told it's not a SkiDoo is a Cat. If you want to call it something call it a snowmobile as at least that is not a "Brand". Bruce has the rights to the term Manx, but does he have the rights to Dune Buggy?

Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:07 pm

I tend to think of a buggy as a puzzle. But on a more serious note, what we do is a restoration or a re-birth of a classic car. Maybe once they were a kit car. But we are more like a painter touching up the sisteenth chapel. Most of what we have is in reality bringing good things back from the dead. With todays technology and parts availiable we are able to rebuild buggy projects in ways that people could not ever think of when they were in "kit" stage. Unles you are building a Berrien buggy or something similer, the kit" stage is gone. We are artists restoring a piece of history.

Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:09 pm

Quote: We are artists restoring a piece of history.

I like that! 8)

Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:31 pm

Like the sturgengeneral said. they may have been kit cars once, but I can't recall a build i've followed here that could be considered an assembly, someones always fabing something. I am on my first build a with a 30+ year old body that was sitting off the pan in someones back yard. Everything needs massaging to make it fit. I'm loving it for that, I am torn between the build and the vision. I know when the vision becomes reality i'll be looking for the next vision.

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:03 pm

I began the restoration of my "kit" buggy thinking I wanted to do something simple - not a "real car" restoration, but more like a toy! It's definitely a toy, but has gone waaaay beyond simple! :lol:

This used to be a swingaxle rear end.......

What fun is just building a "kit"??? :D
Jeff

Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:48 pm

I have built 9 "kits" (3 dunebuggies, a Bradley GT, a Bradley GTII, a Sterling, a Manta Mirage, a Kelmark, and a CMC Speedster).

The only one that came with a manual was the GTII. Everything else was assembled without the use of any instructions.

Once you begin to fabricate significant parts of the car, I think you go beyond a "kit". The Factory Five cars I think are true kits. There new complete kit has basically everything needed to build the car (less running gear). I mean every nut and bolt. To me....thats a "kit".

I don't know what I would call resurecting these older kits. A labor of love? A challenge? An excercise in futility?

Right now I am working through a 3 piece FiberFab Avenger. It has a tilt front, tilt rear, and two doors with roll up windows. Talk about a challenge! Everything nees to be dreamed up, fabricated, fitted and made to work. I have spent about 5 hours so far getting the drivers side door to close properly and almost doing the same on the passenger side. Once they simply close I need to add structural steel into them and a power window kit! The front and rear hinges did not exist so those had to be fabricated. I would not call this project a "kit"...even though it was originally sold that way.

I am yearning to go back to buggies. My Deserter GT sits by the garage waiting. No doors, no panels to fit....ahhhh I can't freaking wait!

Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:29 pm

30 years ago Dunebuggy's were kits with detailed instructions and various parts. Back then you bought a complete VW Bug and transformed it into your Dunebuggy using the parts in the kit and the parts from the Bug.

Today you can get a new body, but nobody make a complete Dunebuggy kit.

Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:08 am

jspbtown wrote: I have built 9 "kits" (3 dunebuggies, a Bradley GT, a Bradley GTII, a Sterling, a Manta Mirage, a Kelmark, and a CMC Speedster).

The only one that came with a manual was the GTII. Everything else was assembled without the use of any instructions.

Once you begin to fabricate significant parts of the car, I think you go beyond a "kit". The Factory Five cars I think are true kits. There new complete kit has basically everything needed to build the car (less running gear). I mean every nut and bolt. To me....thats a "kit".

I don't know what I would call resurecting these older kits. A labor of love? A challenge? An excercise in futility?

Right now I am working through a 3 piece FiberFab Avenger. It has a tilt front, tilt rear, and two doors with roll up windows. Talk about a challenge! Everything nees to be dreamed up, fabricated, fitted and made to work. I have spent about 5 hours so far getting the drivers side door to close properly and almost doing the same on the passenger side. Once they simply close I need to add structural steel into them and a power window kit! The front and rear hinges did not exist so those had to be fabricated. I would not call this project a "kit"...even though it was originally sold that way.

I am yearning to go back to buggies. My Deserter GT sits by the garage waiting. No doors, no panels to fit....ahhhh I can't freaking wait!

Hey Jeff, Have you seen this link? Check out the fourth set.
http://www.dunebuggyarchives.com/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=901

Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:51 pm

vwracerdave wrote: 30 years ago Dunebuggy's were kits with detailed instructions and various parts. Back then you bought a complete VW Bug and transformed it into your Dunebuggy using the parts in the kit and the parts from the Bug.

Today you can get a new body, but nobody make a complete Dunebuggy kit.

A don't know, the Manxter is available in a pretty complete kit in your description.

Standard Kit

Price: $7,700

Parts Included:

Fiberglass Body
Fiberglass Hood with Associated Hardware & Pinchwelt
Fiberglass Air Box & Gas Spring Assembly
Fiberglass 2-piece Dash with Glove Box & Instrument Panel (instruments not included)
Fiberglass Windshield Surround assembled with glass
Fiberglass Hardtop in Black or White with Mounting Hardware
6-point Steel Top Support System with Side Intrusion Bars
Polished Stainless Steel Front & Rear Bumpers with Accompanying Bracketry
Transmission Mount for Type I or Type II
Lights: Headlights, Turn-Signals, License Plate Light, Taillights.
Turbo Side Mirrors
“Manxter 2+2” Rear Emblem & “Meyers Manx” Front Emblem
Serial Number Plate mounted on body
All Body Support Bracketry, Fasteners, Hood Hinge, Hood Latches, Glovebox Hinges
Instruction Manual
1-Year Complimentary Manx Club Membership or Renewal (member number will be assigned)
Driveline and chassis not included. We use all brand new components in our do-it-yourself kits.

Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:25 pm

Tom,
Yes...thanks I have seen that page. As a matter of fact I printed out the manual last week at my office.

Even with the manual those old kits are a bear to build.

On the Avenger the front and rear hinges when new were a terrible design. I am incorporating power windows so that is all fabrication. Plus the prior builder hung pedals from the top so I am using those...which makes the gas tank not fit per the build instructions...so I had to get a custom tank. Then of course the clutch cable doen't work so I need to run those hydraulic lines. And it uses a dual master cylinder for the brakes...so thats custom.

Add in moving the shifter back 8", building a full length console because the 1/2 console looks terrible, and trying to repair the 4" dropped fiberglass and steel wire floor pans and you have got so much that is outside the manual its almost no good.

Don't get me wrong..those manuals are a life saver if you have a pretty complete start and you are just rebuilding...but when you have a basic shell and you are upgrading...its all seat of the pants. For me they are reference material, which like I said, I have printed out and I read them cover to cover whenever I can sneak a minute

Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:40 pm

I built a replica kubelwagen from scratch (thread in the Beetle - Split-Window/1938-53 VWs forum), and I have had countless people ask "Is that from a kit?" I'd reply "no, I built it up from scratch" and the usual reply is "yeah, a KIT car..." So, I think a lot of people just don't know the difference between attaching pre-formed parts together and following some kind of instruction manual from making parts out of raw materials and getting them to function properly.

I have also ran into a lot of people who genuinely dis-like the car because it is a sort of "imposter" that somehow doesn't deserve to exist because it is not of pure origin.

I wish I had originally started my thread in this forum ("kit car") because I think I would have been exposed to a lot more people who are into the fabrication process vs. the accuracy/authenticity of what the end result represents.

I have viewed this forum very frequently in the last few years and am always amazed at the level of ingenuity and determination you guys collectivily have. Keep up the awesome work!

Ken Morgan

edit: Sorry, my car isn't a dune buggy per-se, but the whole kit car vs. built car theme is the same for me.

Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:49 pm

If this is what you built, you should have linked us to it. I think it looks great.

Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:19 am

Man that is just bitchin awesome!!! ^^^