TheSamba.com :: View topic - Not really a barn find but close...SCCA Rally veteran in NH

Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:32 pm

That is an awsome find, and will be very rewarding when your all done. I will be sure to visit when I can just to see and touch a car that has such a historic value. I live in northern mass, just south of Fitzwilliam so getting over to Dover would be a nice drive in my VW.

Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:35 pm

bryanbrutherford wrote: About that duck

I have a friend who is quite knowledgeable about citroens.
I just asked him about the duck.

here is his response:

The Germans refer to the 2CV as "the duck." I don't know why, it seems odd to me.

There was a special edition done for the German market in the 1980s where the cars were painted bright green (for the Green Party) and had a flying duck on the side with text that translated to "I fly lead free."

Just to finish this so we can get back on track. Popular French nicknames were "Deuche" and "Dedeuche". The Dutch were the first to call it "het lelijke eendje" ("the ugly duckling") or just "Eend" ("duck"), In German-speaking countries it is called "Ente" ("duck"). Thank you and please drive through.

Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:26 pm

Hey, I actually found a pic of a vintage catalog that has the exact sticker in it for you. You can't order it, but it gives you a nice clean pic of it. I could probably Photoshop it for ya to clean it up if you are interested.

Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:10 am

Wow, thanks. The company went out of business in 1976...ouch. I'm going to attempt to see if I can remove it intact, I'll let you know if I need a photochop.

Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:24 pm

Freak182 wrote: Wow, thanks. The company went out of business in 1976...ouch. I'm going to attempt to see if I can remove it intact, I'll let you know if I need a photochop.

just make sure to get a nice, clear, dead on photo before you try removing it.

Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:47 pm

bryanbrutherford wrote: Freak182 wrote: Wow, thanks. The company went out of business in 1976...ouch. I'm going to attempt to see if I can remove it intact, I'll let you know if I need a photochop.

just make sure to get a nice, clear, dead on photo before you try removing it. I thought about it and took care of that, along with measurements. I don't think it is going to make it, it is pretty cracked and very thin.

Wait until you see the pictures I got tonight. A slew of vintage action shots from when the car was new (and I mean glossy-paint-and-pretty NEW) up into the 80s. I have to resize the pics cuz they bitmap scans. I'll post them up tomorrow. Also found out the car was rolled at one point and got a roof clip, which explains a couple of things I was wondering about. I'll explain more when I post the pics.

Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:13 am

Ok, I'm still trying to ID the front brakes. Someone asked me how many pins it had, I didn't know at the time but it has two, does that help ID any? What about having 2 bleeders? I've been told they are from a Euro Super, a Ghia, a T4, and a Porsche. Help??

Funky apron cutout. It looks like it is factory, the edge is rolled and everything.

I was reading a thread some place about venturing off without a good selection of tools...then I found the toolkit for the car :D

I was asked about the vertical tubes on the strut brace, they are to mount a second spare like so. They are threaded for lugnuts as well.

30+ year old Bilsteins...still damp the rebound nicely too.

Ok, on to the vintage pics. When I first opened them up, I got really concerned because in several of the shots, the car clearly has a sunroof and the one sitting in my garage does not. Bill explained that he thinks it was in the late 70s but might have been the early 80s, they were supposed to run a TSD event but had to withdraw because the car had rolled and was down for a while getting a roof clip and new doors mounted. He also pointed out to me in the front of the owners manual under the warranty section, you can just barely make out the purchase date of something-1973 with mileage of 44 miles with a note in parentheses it says 'Al's new toy'.Phew. Looking over the pics, it is fun to watch the changes as lights moved around and went from being mounted on the bumper to their own mounts, trim slowly disappeared, the hood evolved, etc. Bill thinks the 'RALLYE' stripes came for an old Talbot or Peugeot. He seems to remember Al bring them back from a trip to France but since it wasn't important at the time, he really isn't sure.

When it was shiny new.

He looks so proud

The guy in the background looks like he's skating

Zoooooomieeeees!

This one is just badass. I love this shot.

The rest of them.

Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:30 am

i see the reason for the odd exhast cutout....

[quote="Freak182"][

Zoooooomieeeees!

Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:17 pm

Sweet! That is so cool that you have access to all of those pics!

Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:08 pm

That's too cool!

Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:17 pm

Wow, awesome history.

One question for anyone here, I have read that Super's are terrible for a baja bug but are they good for a rally race? Seems like it would be somewhat similar conditions.. clue me in please.

Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:58 pm

lanceevox wrote: Wow, awesome history.

One question for anyone here, I have read that Super's are terrible for a baja bug but are they good for a rally race? Seems like it would be somewhat similar conditions.. clue me in please. I've heard the same, I think some is based on truth and some on fiction. For a baja you cut the front, taking away some of the strength. I've heard of struts breaking out of the body and lower control arms bending and breaking. Serious baja running with jumps and stuff, I'd stay away from a Super, but for rallies, all the top modern cars run struts as well. I'm off to bed but tomorrow I'll post some pics of the strut areas so people can see the condition after 35K HARD HARD miles.

Spoiler: not even a crack or a weld mark.

Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:28 pm

That's so awesome that you have access to pictures like that.

Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:38 pm

Look just like the Ghia 2 pin calipers on both my bugs. You can see the Varga stamp on the other pics.

Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:24 pm

Those old pictures are fantastic! Thanks for sharing them.

Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:00 am

Great Pics~!
This series of articles should be wonderful, but a book! That would be awesome. The editors should keep that option in mind while they do their writing. Someone could chronicle the history of the car (first sections of the book) and then the restoration (second part) and then the reintroduction/testing/competing of the car after the resto....

Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:31 am

Thanks for the feedback!

Ok, on the Super Beetle durability\practicality question, here's a little background. In the early 70s, the Porsche Salzburg kg competed in international rallies using a team of 1302s with 126hp@6000rpm(!!!) dry sump 1599cc motors, 5 speed Porsche transaxels and "Amazingly small changes to the standard car are made to the chassis. Bilstein shock absorbers, front shock struts (a Bilstein development), an adjustment of the front wheels to a negative camber of 0,5 degrees and experiments with a stabilizer on the rear axle, which one does not always use, that is all. Steering element, rear wheel suspension and even clearance remain unchanged. The dry weight of the rally-ready car amounts to 890 kg. The gasoline tank holds 80 litres. The 5 1/2-rims are produced in the house: Normal Volkswagen rims are cut apart, and welded together wider. These steel wheels are only insignificantly heavier than light alloy wheels, and brought the best results in hard operation. Because of the contract with Pirelli mostly 165HR15-Tyres of the type M535 (normal or coarse profile) are drawn up, the selection exist also between Racing and winter mixture. "

One of the original Porsche Salzburg cars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac96nslFOg4

A great article can be found here: http://www.rallybugs.com/engtrans.htm
Make sure you check out the rest of the site if you have any interest in VW Beetles and Rallying or just competition history in general.

I, like everyone else, have heard about how the Super's front suspension is weak and unsuitable for any type of off-road activities. Now, Rally isn't like Baja but, it is without a doubt extremely hard on a car and its suspension. My car has 35,559 miles on it, Bill estimates about 20,000 of that is in direct competition with all the remaining but a few thousand in transit between stages. If you are not familiar with rallies, between 'stages' or the actual timed segments, you must drive your car to the next stage or to service. Those transits and service sections have time limits as well, many transit sections are run almost as hard as the stages.

As promised, here are some pics of the strut areas of my car. the only modification I can detect is the home-brew strut brace. Interesting how it not only connects the two together, it also braces against the inside of the towers as well.

Under the hood:

Stock control arms:

In the fenderwell:

The only front end modification besides the brace, that I can detect:

If you are interested in a current Beetle in Rally, the Huebbe brothers, John and Mark, run a 1970 Standard Beetle in Rally America competition.

http://www.rallybugs.com/images/Huebbe/rally_wv9.jpg

Their website is http://www.321govideo.com/rallybug/

Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:22 am

d50erock wrote: That is an awsome find, and will be very rewarding when your all done. I will be sure to visit when I can just to see and touch a car that has such a historic value. I live in northern mass, just south of Fitzwilliam so getting over to Dover would be a nice drive in my VW. Ugg, sorry, missed this one with the page change. If you are in my area sometime, definitely you are welcome to swing by and check it out, swap some VW stories and such. I'm really easy to find. Shoot me a PM if you get this way.

Anyone going to Transporterfest next weekend?

Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:28 pm

Fantastic "provenance" (as they say in the antiques world) with those old photos! Did you notice at least 4 different lic. plates? I wonder if the one person meant a Formula SUPER Vee- spec engine with twin downdraft Webers- Super Vee single-seat race cars used either the 1600 DP engine as basis or even the type 4, and did allow twin carbs. An old acquaintance and colleague of my dad's at Volkswagen of America created the SuperVee class...

Having studs on the discs/drums made changing wheels much quicker.

It's not easy to tell, but it seems different front wheels were installed in the various old photos- you can tell the offset difference by how far in or out the hubcap retaining "ring" is in relation to the outer rim/tire junction. I can't remember if I pointed this out when you first got the car, but have you been able to locate the "ET" numbers on all 4 wheels? I'd imagine the front ones are at least ET40 or a higher #, and the rears ET34...

Did you know that there's an engine builder in Germany that built a replica engine of the Porsche Salzburg rally Beetle engine, to install into a replica rally Beetle? Even at 1600cc it still made over 130hp! http://www.rbernauer.de/ , kaefer & co. on left, then "typ 1 Motoren", then "Rennmotoren".

Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:36 pm

Bashr52 wrote:

Look just like the Ghia 2 pin calipers on both my bugs. You can see the Varga stamp on the other pics.

Euro Supers had disc brakes, but also:
For '72 & '73 the type 3 got bigger front brake calipers & rotors.
Maybe '72-'73 type 3 are what you have?