TheSamba.com :: View topic

Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:48 pm

i have been using sierra's propylene glycol-based antifreeze up to this point, but it's unavailable in my area (due to o'reilly's takeover of every other parts store around). so, i picked up some prestone extended life, which purports to be phosphate-free. is this suitable for use, or should i go get ripped off at the dealership?

thanks in advance,
james g.

Fri May 01, 2009 3:23 am

duderanchero wrote: i have been using sierra's propylene glycol-based antifreeze up to this point, but it's unavailable in my area (due to o'reilly's takeover of every other parts store around). so, i picked up some prestone extended life, which purports to be phosphate-free. is this suitable for use, or should i go get ripped off at the dealership?

thanks in advance,
james g.

Prestone is fine, any major brand is fine.... any coolant is fine.

If you people think brand name super dooper phosphate free coolant will protect your heads from head pitting, your all up for one big surprise one day.

Sorry to sound so rough but it's a fact, It's a design problem.

Ben

Fri May 01, 2009 6:55 am

ftp2leta wrote: duderanchero wrote: i have been using sierra's propylene glycol-based antifreeze up to this point, but it's unavailable in my area (due to o'reilly's takeover of every other parts store around). so, i picked up some prestone extended life, which purports to be phosphate-free. is this suitable for use, or should i go get ripped off at the dealership?

thanks in advance,
james g.

Prestone is fine, any major brand is fine.... any coolant is fine.

If you people think brand name super dooper phosphate free coolant will protect your heads from head pitting, your all up for one big surprise one day.

Sorry to sound so rough but it's a fact, It's a design problem.

Ben

i tell religious folk the same thing about their souls.

but you know, thanks for the affirmation, ben. although if one thing is better than another, i'd rather go with the better one. and that's really what i'm trying to ascertain here: does my vanagon like one coolant better than another? 'cause hell, if she don't care, i'll just mix some mayonnaise and distilled water.

james

Fri May 01, 2009 8:06 am

Quote: i tell religious folk the same thing about their souls.

What, that the soul is a design problem?

I think religious people are a fatal design flaw that indicates a deeply flawed corporate culture upstairs, but that's an entire other subject for discussion.

I disagree, most respectfully, with Ben that head pitting is an aspect of the design. If pitting only developed under the seal, then there would be some basis for that, but it also develops all across the underside of the head in areas that are only exposed to coolant. To my mind, that has to be a chemistry problem. And I see plenty of engines whose heads have no pitting at all, or nearly zero. If the design is flawed, then why don't they all get damaged?

Here's what I think: it doesn't matter what brand of antifreeze you use so long as it is phosphate free (phosphorus is very hostile to aluminum, that much we do know), and it gets replaced or its additives replenished on a schedule sufficient to guarantee that the protective additives are always abundantly available to prevent corrosion. I think it's breakdown and loss of the corrosion inhibitive additives that results in corrosion, and it develops first at the hottest aluminum surfaces immersed in coolant, the underside of the heads.

It's also important not to use hard water. Excess minerals in solution will deplete the protective additives prematurely, and then those minerals will precipitate out of solution and plate out the internal surfaces of radiator and heater cores, rendering them ineffective and ultimately useless. Use distilled, deionised, or rainwater.

I use Dexcool, which is the GM label for a Prestone product using Organic Acid Technology, or OAT. It's a different type of additive package than is used in typical antifreezes, which depended heavily on silicates to plate surfaces and prevent corrosion. Is OAT better? I dunno, but it works for me. It is phosphate-free, but most of the products you find nowadays are anyway.

There is certainly no credible evidence I've ever seen to support the notion that the VW Pentosin product is required to protect this engine type. I have little reason to trust VW's recommendations on this matter, because they were the ones who released the engine with a phosphated antifreeze in it to begin with, and then went on to say it had a liftetime coolant, which no doubt encouraged a lot of early owners to neglect basic cooling system maintenance. There is no lifetime anything, and automotive cooling systems require periodic maintenance no matter who manufactured them nor which antifreeze is being used. You should be changing out your coolant, or replenishing its additive package, and changing out your thermostat and pressure cap every three or four years. This goes for any of your watercooled engines. The Vanagon is just another engine in this regard. A lot of owners would have a better time of owning these things if they would just accept that it is just another watercooled car, instead of some odd exotic animal which seems to be how most people perceive it.

Propylene glycol antifreezes are nice in that spills are not immediately dangerous to pets and kids, and plenty of people use it successfully, but nonetheless it is a less efficient heat carrier than ethylene glycol. Enough to make a difference? Plainly not, but it's still a fact in comparing the two types.

Fri May 01, 2009 8:14 am

Quote: I disagree, most respectfully, with Ben that head pitting is an aspect of the design.

I like it when you disagree with me :-)

Quote: I think religious people are a fatal design flaw that indicates a deeply flawed corporate culture upstairs

Men, i like the way you write... it look beautiful, but I have no clue what it mean :-)

But I got this part right:
"""religious people are a fatal design flaw"""

Ben

Fri May 01, 2009 8:23 am

Quote: Men, i like the way you write... it look beautiful, but I have no clue what it mean

Thanks, but don't worry, buddy, you're beautiful in your own way. Your buses are beautiful, that's for sure, and if that's your canvas, then an artist you are.

Fri May 01, 2009 8:35 am

I'm a big fan of having NO WATER in my coolant..
and although I haven't taken the plunge just yet, as I rebuild my vanagon I intend to use Evan's Racing Coolant
it's pricey, but so are all of the other "special" coolants. I've long known that it's the H2o in coolant that "overheats" that an engine can run much hotter then regular temperature. but the antifreeze mixture is the most heat susceptible component.
With their NPG+plus coolants they have the a regular working viscosity.. (early Evan's coolant was too thick, require special pumps)

With the cooling system running at near 0-zero pressure the hoses, heads & heatercores will last darn near forever.. if you do get a pinhole it is jut that a pinhole drip. not a geyser. and being able to better handle the heat soak from a long Mtn grade without blowing it's top. Well just makes sense to me anyways.

Quote: Evans NPG Coolant is 100% inhibited Propylene Glycol. It can maintain substantially vapor free, liquid - to - metal contact at all coolant temperature and engine loads. By bathing the entire combustion chamber with coolant 100% of the time, metal temperatures are controlled to such an extent that critical levels of detonation and pre-ignition are never reached. Because NPG's naturally high 370 degree F boiling point, the need for adding high pressure to the cooling system is eliminated. Without pressure (or low pressure, i.e. 2 to 5 psi) in the system, gasket seals, hose connections, and even the radiator core, operate safer and longer. For a brief overview of the properties, please read our NPG properties tables found in our technical info page.

Fri May 01, 2009 8:41 am

tencentlife wrote: Propylene glycol antifreezes are nice in that spills are not immediately dangerous to pets and kids, and plenty of people use it successfully, but nonetheless it is a less efficient heat carrier than ethylene glycol. Enough to make a difference? Plainly not, but it's still a fact in comparing the two types.

Does adding a product such as Red Line WaterWetter or Royal Purple Purple Ice aid in the heat transfer? And do the other additives in these products prolong the life of the coolant?

As far as sourcing Sierra, it is more widely used in marine applications. You may have success finding it at a boating supply or repair shop. I purchase it at my local NAPA store.

Fri May 01, 2009 8:57 am

I like the WaterWetter and recommend it. I don't know about any other additives in it, but basic physics says that a surfactant will increase transfer of heat from surfaces to liquid, and vice versa, so it can only help in making the system more effective.

Fri May 01, 2009 9:25 am

Just to add more to the mix.

Iv used Water weter and didnt see that it hurt or helped any thing. I Paid for it so i think it works.

Back in the day there was a big deal about running Polypropylene Glycol in the coolant system with a no pressure cap and no water added. It was basically food grate. The same stuff found in sorbet ice creams and orange pops. I think Evens super coolant listed above is the same or similar stuff. I used it in a small block chevy 302 with alum heads because of the dissimilar metals.
The advantage was a super high boil point with zero pressure, none corrosive and "GREEN" before that meant more than a colour.

Does anyone remember that stuff??? Has anyone used it in the vanagons?

jcl

Fri May 01, 2009 9:48 am

I really agree with Ben. I do recommend Sierra, it meets the specs and is safe for things outside the car. However, all the Landrover V8's are and have been aluminum. As where many Buicks (which the Landrover's engine is licensed from). None have any head pitting problems and you use Prestone or any other Al safe formulas, but there is NO warning in the manuals about it and mine last decades, and head pitting has never been a problem.

Yes, it is a design problem.

Fri May 01, 2009 12:34 pm

Water Wetter certainly can't hurt, but in a system with 60/40% glycol and water its overkill and not worth the added expense.

For those who don't know the stuff, its a surfactant that (among other things) prevents formation of bubbles on the walls of the engine coolant cavities. Bubbles = significant loss of heat transfer surface, so WW breaks down surface tension, keeping the water against the metal.

Water Wetter is great stuff when you decide (or are forced) to forgo glycol. I raced streetbikes in the '90s and the track banned the use of glycol in cooling systems - straight H2O only. The reason being if you spilled coolant onto the track, a rider was less likely to crash running over straight water versus glycol & water.

A quality coolant changed yearly is probably the best strategy when it comes to the wbx.

Fri May 01, 2009 5:14 pm

i thank you for the thoughtful replies. i'll pour in the prestone and learn to breathe a little on those uphill climbs.

i would prefer to buy sierra for ecological reasons, but i have had no success finding it locally. even my napa doesn't carry the stuff. el paso is a pretty big town, but it's far removed from most points of distribution. unless you're looking for dirtweed.

as for religion, i'd say it's more a means of checking out of life and responsibility for it. not a byproduct of the corporate-washed brain, but a refuge for those disaffected by the world around them. but it's really more a cultural hand-me-down than anything else. like growing up on a cruise ship, and then being told you can jump into the ocean at any time. well, shoot--you never learned to swim. but i really have no problems with religion itself, only when folks use it to drive a wedge between themselves and others/their perceptions. a ritual context you can believe in is important for self-improvement.

i hereby vow to restrain myself from further commentary on religion in this forum.

james

Fri May 01, 2009 5:29 pm

Our local Walmart has Sierra antifreeze or at least has at times. Of course in Tejas selling any of that weird enviro stuff might be a no-no even for the likes of Wally World

Fri May 01, 2009 8:22 pm

Wildthings wrote: Our local Walmart has Sierra antifreeze or at least has at times. Of course in Tejas selling any of that weird enviro stuff might be a no-no even for the likes of Wally World

you're right about that. maybe in austin. wally's here just carries peak.

Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:48 am

I think Ben is right about the anti freeze! I don't agree with tencentliife that as a christian I have a "design flaw". Most people with that attitude change their mind when they are drawling their Last Breath. But that is for another forum!!!

Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:39 am

I have heard of big problems with dexcool . dexcool even had a recall on GM cars for the stuff destroyed some rubber parts is my understanding. I had it in one car and got rid of it fast. I under stand it has probelms when mixed with regular fluid (it gels up) I would stay well away from GM dexcool.

for religion, for an athiest to be insulting to tell folks that if they have religion that they have a design flaw is drving a wedge between folks and is just plain nasty. you should owe the good folks here that have religion an apology. i did not detect any religious person making blanket negitive statements about athiests on this post. completely uncalled for. are all athiests this rude as these posters? why do you drag your negitive views of religion in an antifreeze discussion? have a chip on your shoulder?? you really think we are all designed flawed???

I am very interested int eh waterless antifreeze technologyu, maybe a solution to the head pitting probelm???

Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:19 am

dave menche wrote: I have heard of big problems with dexcool [] I would stay well away from GM dexcool.

for religion, for an athiest to be insulting ...

Two answers. I've been using Dexcool in a 50-50 mix with distilled water since I put in the long block almost 50k miles ago. Seems to be fine so far.

A person stating that they think religion is an aberration is not to say one is also an atheist. Some people get along just fine without an organization and approved doctrine. Then, there this:

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself".

-- Sir Richard F. Burton (1821 - 1890) --

8)

Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:41 am

he states it is a "fatal design flaw" i dont recall him calling it an aberation, but that is also insulting. no need for that rudeness in a coolant post. dont really know if he is athiest or not, my mistake maybe, then again he does say it is a "design" flaw, so maybe there is acknowledgment of a grand design of humans.
no one should insults folks for no reason on this post. bad bad form at best. no place for it here at all. insulting as hell.

Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:48 am

dave menche wrote: he states it is a "fatal design flaw" ... insulting as hell.

Okay, how 'bout this:

"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant".

Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman (attributed)

A play on words, viz a viz Vanagon heads, and a reference to a personal predilection. Tuck your shirt back in. We're all forgiven, right?

Methinks Dexcool works great.

8)