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Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:20 am

I have a sandrail with a bettle engine that gets me around the mountains here in Alberta
however when I get stuck I use a warren8ooolb
winch with a snatch block sometimes however
I can litterly stall the engine by drawing to much amprege for the winch I don't particularly want to haul arround another battery can I do anything to the stock 65amp
alternator to get more output.I hate it when I have to walk out and get another battery

Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:37 am

are you on a 6volt system?? convert to 12 volt and you should see a big difference

Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:27 am

Okay
i used to turn truck alternators and washing machine motors into wind turbines and water powered alternators so i know a tad about what to do
if you have access to a metal lathe or a good machine shop 1 take out your alternator, strip off the commutator and primary winding but keep your secondaries stock or keep the same winding ratio with a thicker wire for higher current flow though that's only necessary for large current demands.
go get some rare earth magnets the bigger the better. once the rotor is out use a lathe to skim down the excess metal. and fit the rare earth magnets, you will have to figure out the best way to fit them together but it all depends on what magnets you can source remember ceramic magnets are NOT what you want you must use rare earth. once you've gotten them placed on the rotor its best to resin them in place as long as they're adhered well. rare earth magnets are hugely powerful and create a much larger magnetic flux than the stock electromagnet and keeping the secondary windings the same means the voltage will be kept the same but the amperage will be massive.

if you cant afford the conversion, which can be expensive then get a coupler of nice big 5 or 7 farad electrolytic capacitors to store up some power if you're only winching quickly, or otherwise there are some other devices that are similar to capacitors and batteries that might give a bit longer power

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:37 am

jack wrote: I have a sandrail with a bettle engine that gets me around the mountains here in Alberta
however when I get stuck I use a warren8ooolb
winch with a snatch block sometimes however
I can litterly stall the engine by drawing to much amprege for the winch I don't particularly want to haul arround another battery can I do anything to the stock 65amp
alternator to get more output.I hate it when I have to walk out and get another battery

There is no solution for horse power... It takes horse power to spin alternator.. .. Bigger Amp alternator is going to do nothing for you if you can stall motor with small alternator.. A bigger one will just do it quicker.... IF you need more amperage, add bigger/second battery and hand throttle to hold engine RPM at higher rate during winch operation....

Might consider smaller (physical size) but more amp hour rated batteries like ODYSSEY provides (maybe two of them)..

http://www.odysseybattery.com/

I have been actually considering a "extra" hand throttle accessible from front of Jeep during heavy winch operation...

Dale

Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:09 pm

Just a thought but we use capacitors in car audio. For the price of a capacitor im sure you could find a MUCH better solution. Yellow(or red) top optima is another solution we use, and also doing the 'big 3 upgrade' which is:
1. Bigger power wire between battery/alternator
2. Bigger ground wire from battery to chassis
3. Bigger or second ground strap from engine to chassis

I will personally tell you that all of these help. Some people could disagree but in my experience it did.

Awhile back I had a jeep cherokee that I wheeled up in the mountains and I had a system in it. It did fine and everything but then I got a winch and when I used it , it would drain my battery(my red top optima). So I got a .5 farad capacitor and no more problems.

Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:59 pm

Dale M. wrote: jack wrote: I have a sandrail with a bettle engine that gets me around the mountains here in Alberta
however when I get stuck I use a warren8ooolb
winch with a snatch block sometimes however
I can litterly stall the engine by drawing to much amprege for the winch I don't particularly want to haul arround another battery can I do anything to the stock 65amp
alternator to get more output.I hate it when I have to walk out and get another battery

There is no solution for horse power... It takes horse power to spin alternator.. .. Bigger Amp alternator is going to do nothing for you if you can stall motor with small alternator.. A bigger one will just do it quicker.... IF you need more amperage, add bigger/second battery and hand throttle to hold engine RPM at higher rate during winch operation....

Might consider smaller (physical size) but more amp hour rated batteries like ODYSSEY provides (maybe two of them)..

http://www.odysseybattery.com/

I have been actually considering a "extra" hand throttle accessible from front of Jeep during heavy winch operation...

Dale

Isn't the engine stalling because hes pulling too much power away from the ignition and not that he lacks a decent amount of horses.

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:48 pm

Your engine is stalling because the winch is drawing too much amperage. So your stock alt is 65 amps, you are drawing more than 65 amps when using that winch. Your alternator cannot keep up with the draw. To fix this you can do a number of things.
Higher output alternator
Larger battery
Second battery
Capacitor(small battery pretty much)

Some tips when winching if you have draw is to turn anything off you dont need(radio,lights,etc), and to rev the engine while winching. Your alternator pulley is about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of your crank pulley so it will spin about 2 or 3 times as fast as what your RPM is at.

Instead of using 2 batteries I sometimes use one big battery like a 8D bus battery, higher out put alternator is reccomended. But you will NEVER go dead with it, at least I never have even come close to it.

Like I stated earlier a simple ugrade is the 'Big 3'. Your small wires have alot of resistance in them robbing power, using larger wires gives less resistance which in turn lets more current flow. It really is noticeable.

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:28 pm

cmiller95 wrote: Dale M. wrote: jack wrote: I have a sandrail with a bettle engine that gets me around the mountains here in Alberta
however when I get stuck I use a warren8ooolb
winch with a snatch block sometimes however
I can litterly stall the engine by drawing to much amprege for the winch I don't particularly want to haul arround another battery can I do anything to the stock 65amp
alternator to get more output.I hate it when I have to walk out and get another battery

There is no solution for horse power... It takes horse power to spin alternator.. .. Bigger Amp alternator is going to do nothing for you if you can stall motor with small alternator.. A bigger one will just do it quicker.... IF you need more amperage, add bigger/second battery and hand throttle to hold engine RPM at higher rate during winch operation....

Might consider smaller (physical size) but more amp hour rated batteries like ODYSSEY provides (maybe two of them)..

http://www.odysseybattery.com/

I have been actually considering a "extra" hand throttle accessible from front of Jeep during heavy winch operation...

Dale

Isn't the engine stalling because hes pulling too much power away from the ignition and not that he lacks a decent amount of horses.

GOOD QUESTION .... We do not know if engine is stalled because of "voltage drop" or hack of horse power to keep alternator spinning....

More information is probably needed....

Dale

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:30 pm

its gunna b bad wrote:
Awhile back I had a jeep cherokee that I wheeled up in the mountains and I had a system in it. It did fine and everything but then I got a winch and when I used it , it would drain my battery(my red top optima). So I got a .5 farad capacitor and no more problems.

Can you explain the capacitor theory more..... Most times Capacitors are used for NOISE FILTERING... I do not see where it would help in this situation....

Dale

Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:47 pm

I know that there are different types of capacitors, I only happen to know about the electrolytic capacitors though, so im sure there are capacitors used for noise filtering and such. But anyways to explain it the easiest way I can is to say that a capacitor does what a battery does...it handles voltage 'brownages'. When you are running out of power to supply to the winch then the capacitor will discharge and give the winch its power, your alternator will then charge the capacitor back up to do it again when needed. Warning: this can be hard on stock charging systems if constantly draining and charging. Like 'cubes' said...you could get a larger size capacitor, but then you might as well get another battery or just upgrade your alternator.

Does that explain it Dale?

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:42 pm

its gunna b bad wrote: I know that there are different types of capacitors, I only happen to know about the electrolytic capacitors though, so im sure there are capacitors used for noise filtering and such. But anyways to explain it the easiest way I can is to say that a capacitor does what a battery does...it handles voltage 'brownages'. When you are running out of power to supply to the winch then the capacitor will discharge and give the winch its power, your alternator will then charge the capacitor back up to do it again when needed. Warning: this can be hard on stock charging systems if constantly draining and charging. Like 'cubes' said...you could get a larger size capacitor, but then you might as well get another battery or just upgrade your alternator.

Does that explain it Dale?

NOPE..... Because charge and discharge rates for capacitors are almost instantaneous.... And a electrical "brown out" on auto motive system is over long duration (electrically) and capacitor can only charger to voltage at any give time in electrical system.... In other words it can only follow the voltage variance of what ever is happen in electrical system and any given moment...

IF system is being pulled down enough to create "brownout" that means voltage is so low it can't power ignition system.... Hence forth the voltage across capacitor is at same voltage (brownout) and is no help...

Dale

Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:13 pm

Wouldnt the capacitor discharge before it hit too far of a brownout to cause ignition system to fail?
To look at this in a bigger(but more vague) picture...wouldnt a bigger or second battery fix this guys problem. A battery is essentially just a bigger capacitor...Obviously too small of a capacitor is going to do nothing besides fix a little headlight dimming or give you a couple more seconds of winching time. But the right size capacitor I believe would discharge before the drainage starts affecting the 12 volt systems(like ignition). If you can teach me something I dont know ,please do. I'd love to learn.
Thanks Dale.

Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:56 am

its gunna b bad wrote: Wouldnt the capacitor discharge before it hit too far of a brownout to cause ignition system to fail?
To look at this in a bigger(but more vague) picture...wouldnt a bigger or second battery fix this guys problem. A battery is essentially just a bigger capacitor...Obviously too small of a capacitor is going to do nothing besides fix a little headlight dimming or give you a couple more seconds of winching time. But the right size capacitor I believe would discharge before the drainage starts affecting the 12 volt systems(like ignition). If you can teach me something I dont know ,please do. I'd love to learn.
Thanks Dale.

No a battery is not like a big capacitor... The word "capacity" is only a term used to describe the ability for a battery to generate a useable voltage over a given amount of time.. A capacitor only stores a charge when it is disconnected, other wise voltage and "current" follows system voltage.... When a capacitor is connected directly to system its charge/discharge is continuous and instantaneous...

A "vehicle" battery (flooded cell) "generates" voltage/current by "chemical action/reaction" usually by a acid (sulfuric) reacting to the lead plates submerged into the acid... Keeping in mind we are talking car batteries here, there are all sorts of different types of batteries, constructed in many different ways with different materials, but generally all rely on a "chemical reaction" to produce "power" ...

Here is really good FAQ on batteries...

http://www.batteryfaq.org/

Here is tutorial of sorts on capacitors

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/capacitor/cap_1.html

And yes battery "capacity" (not capacitor) would fix the problem... Its all about "amp/hour" rating of batteries... The more (larger) capacity (amp/hour) the longer a battery can sustain the voltage/current output... Two matched type batteries connected in parallel will generally double the "capacity" (amp/hour) of the "system"...

Dale

Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:41 am

Alright I see what you are saying. What I got from it was that the capacitor is just for 'spurts' of brownages, whereas a battery would supply power to a depleting system over a longer period of time.

Just to clarify I was trying to use laymans terms in my posts, specifically about a battery being a bigger capacitor. They are similar but no, not the same thing.

Using this, how was installing a capacitor in my jeep able to fix my drainage problem when winching? My theory in my head is that maybe the capacitor doesnt discharge ALL of its stored energy, maybe it lets out whats needed.

I need you to explain something you said, you stated "A capacitor only stores a charge when it is disconnected". I dont see how this is true, if there is a capacitor wired up and there is no lack of power then the capacitor would be storing a charge waiting for a brownage to release some(or all) of its power.

Thanks Dale. What is your background in electronics?

Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:54 pm

its gunna b bad wrote: Alright I see what you are saying. What I got from it was that the capacitor is just for 'spurts' of brownages, whereas a battery would supply power to a depleting system over a longer period of time.

Just to clarify I was trying to use laymans terms in my posts, specifically about a battery being a bigger capacitor. They are similar but no, not the same thing.

Using this, how was installing a capacitor in my jeep able to fix my drainage problem when winching? My theory in my head is that maybe the capacitor doesnt discharge ALL of its stored energy, maybe it lets out whats needed.

I need you to explain something you said, you stated "A capacitor only stores a charge when it is disconnected". I dont see how this is true, if there is a capacitor wired up and there is no lack of power then the capacitor would be storing a charge waiting for a brownage to release some(or all) of its power.

Thanks Dale. What is your background in electronics?

Background is 38 years in telecommunications... Building electronic telephone switching system, microwave radio systems, Long and short haul fiber optic systems and cellular phone systems, and DC power systems associated with the previous mentioned "systems"... And presently driving myself nutz learning electronic fuel injection for automobile applications...

Dale

Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:44 pm

Alright, that explains why you thought capacitors were for noise filtering, which im sure you are right, but I was talking about the electrolytic ones.

Anyways I highly disagree with you when you stated "Bigger Amp alternator is going to do nothing for you if you can stall motor with small alternator.. A bigger one will just do it quicker". Like I said in another message, if his alternator is putting out 65 amps and hes using 70 amps with the winch then his alternator cannot keep up. If he gets a 75 amp alternator and is still using the 70 amps with the winch then he is fine because he is supplying the whole car with all the power it needs when winching(70 amps).

Another way to think about it:Lets pretend the battery is what keeps the car running(it really starts the car and handles spikes/brownages), if his 65 amp alternator gives the battery 65 amps to charge it up and he keeps using 70 amps from it, then it is going to go dead, there is no doubt about it. Yes, with a larger battery you would be able to winch longer before stalling because it can store more power(your amp/hour reasoning). But, with a 75 amp alternator to charge the battery it will not go dead. The battery is getting 75 amps and the battery is putting out 70. Thats 5 amps left over to be used for something else, say...storing it in the battery to be used later.So please explain your thinking to me.

Still wondering about this:
I need you to explain something you said, you stated "A capacitor only stores a charge when it is disconnected". I dont see how this is true, if there is a capacitor wired up and there is no lack of power then the capacitor would be storing a charge waiting for a brownage to release some(or all) of its power.

With me and electronics I feel there is sort of a respect style relationship. Kind of like a 'you don't mess with me, and I won't mess with you' type relationship. So as long as I don't go over my head with it, then I can understand it just fine. But if I try to go with something to complicated, then its just going to beat me down. So I don't have a desire to learn fuel injection and telecom like you. I'm just fine with where I am, which is with your basic mobile electronics. I can wire in remote starts, alarms, stereo systems, and I'm even dangerous enough I could probably wire up a non fuel injected car from scratch(igniton,lights,dash,etc). And why I can probably do those things is because they all fall under the 'basic electronics' category. They are all the same principles.

Some people I know think I am some electrician because I do mobile electronics...with some basic learning, i'm sure they could do it too. They wouldnt have to pay to have some speakers installed or getting an alarm on their car. Just kind of a pet peeve of mine on how people can underestimate themselves. Most of my knowledge was gained from a high school electronics class and experience.

Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:22 pm

its gunna b bad wrote: Alright, that explains why you thought capacitors were for noise filtering, which im sure you are right, but I was talking about the electrolytic ones.

Anyways I highly disagree with you when you stated "Bigger Amp alternator is going to do nothing for you if you can stall motor with small alternator.. A bigger one will just do it quicker". Like I said in another message, if his alternator is putting out 65 amps and hes using 70 amps with the winch then his alternator cannot keep up. If he gets a 75 amp alternator and is still using the 70 amps with the winch then he is fine because he is supplying the whole car with all the power it needs when winching(70 amps).

Another way to think about it:Lets pretend the battery is what keeps the car running(it really starts the car and handles spikes/brownages), if his 65 amp alternator gives the battery 65 amps to charge it up and he keeps using 70 amps from it, then it is going to go dead, there is no doubt about it. Yes, with a larger battery you would be able to winch longer before stalling because it can store more power(your amp/hour reasoning). But, with a 75 amp alternator to charge the battery it will not go dead. The battery is getting 75 amps and the battery is putting out 70. Thats 5 amps left over to be used for something else, say...storing it in the battery to be used later.So please explain your thinking to me.

Still wondering about this:
I need you to explain something you said, you stated "A capacitor only stores a charge when it is disconnected". I dont see how this is true, if there is a capacitor wired up and there is no lack of power then the capacitor would be storing a charge waiting for a brownage to release some(or all) of its power.

With me and electronics I feel there is sort of a respect style relationship. Kind of like a 'you don't mess with me, and I won't mess with you' type relationship. So as long as I don't go over my head with it, then I can understand it just fine. But if I try to go with something to complicated, then its just going to beat me down. So I don't have a desire to learn fuel injection and telecom like you. I'm just fine with where I am, which is with your basic mobile electronics. I can wire in remote starts, alarms, stereo systems, and I'm even dangerous enough I could probably wire up a non fuel injected car from scratch(igniton,lights,dash,etc). And why I can probably do those things is because they all fall under the 'basic electronics' category. They are all the same principles.

Some people I know think I am some electrician because I do mobile electronics...with some basic learning, i'm sure they could do it too. They wouldnt have to pay to have some speakers installed or getting an alarm on their car. Just kind of a pet peeve of mine on how people can underestimate themselves. Most of my knowledge was gained from a high school electronics class and experience.

As for bigger alternator stalling out motor comment... It takes horsepower to spin a alternator or generator while it is producing energy.... IF the engine "mechanically" does not have power enough to spin alternator it presently has it will not have enough power to spin bigger alternator under same "electrical" load conditions (brown out excluded for discussion)....

I will give you the "brown out " theory for stalling out motor but not with a capacitor in circuit because capacitor does nothing for preventing brown out as I have experienced it...

About capacitor....

A capacitor in a circuit can only store energy if there is energy present for it to absorb.... IF a capacitor remains connected in any circuitry, the inherent resistance of the circuitry will drain the energy off the capacitor if main power source is shut down and the capacitor is still connected to circuitry... Technically there is a resistive short across capacitor terminals and for all practical purposes it is not disconnected........ NOW if a capacitor has at least one terminal disconnected (to free air) it no longer is in a "resistive short" situation and will hold a charge till reconnected....

Many times in applications where large capacitors are in circuits that contain large amounts of stored energy when turned off, a bleeder resistor is put across terminals to "bleed off' the charge in capacitor as to prevent very sudden and possible lethal charge....

I can tell you from experience do not EVER open up a older electronic flash (strobe ) for a photography which contains a high power xeon lamp and start mucking around inside it without first DISCHARGING the capacitor.... THE ensuing "CRACK" and blue ark and electrical shock will absolutely get your attention......

And by the way you grossly under estimate power draw of a winch... Good 10,000lb winch under full load can draw up to 200-300 amps continuous during "on" cycle... I usually pull for a minuet or two and let system go about 5-10 minutes between pulls to hopefully charge batter some before continuing pull (if pull is determined to be long duration).... One can absolutely ruin a battery if they do not understand what battery are, how the work and what is actual abuse to them.... Even with engine running and alternator putting out 100 amps ( ,u jeep has 110 amp alternator) I can still draw system down to 8 volts or so, and ECU says "that's it, I quit" because of low battery voltage (brown out) . .. BUT if I let system set for a while the battery will recover enough to restart motor.... This is really abusive... And even IF I had a large capacitor across battery, its "charge" voltage is only going to be same as "system" voltage so it is not going to be any reserve or help, and capability to produce energy is going to be discharged in milliseconds before engine can even spin up enough to start....

Dale

Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:47 pm

Mmk.
For the capacitor comment, are you saying that everytime I shut off my car the energy in the capacitor is drained by the time I go back into it? (not rhetorical, just trying to understand)

For the alternator, instead of trying to refute it I will just ask a question.
Is that 65 amp alternator producing its 65 amps at idle? What im trying to ask/get after is , is the alternator charging your battery at idle? I would venture to say yes it is...is it more than what is being used at the moment? Im not sure.

Ohhh, I have been shocked many, many times. I personally think I have some sort of electrical resistance built up or maybe a higher pain tolerance than normal, at least when dealing with shocks. When I was a kid I could grab an electrical fence standing on a peice of metal and not get shocked(or a small shock). When I grabbed the post it lit me up though because of the excellent ground. And now I can always grab fences and not get shocked as much as another person, or play with electrical shock toys and not hurt me as bad as another person that tries it. I've always wondered about why that is.

That actually leads me to ask you a question i've been inquiring about for some time. When installing my stereo system I usually ground to some bare metal in the trunk or car somewhere. Now if I were to run cable back to the negative post, would my amp put out more? (Amplifier pretty much amplifies the voltage)
An example of this is if I did a system with the same amp and one car has 12 volts going to the amp and other has 13 volts going...the 12 volt car would produce say 35 volts(with say 200 watts) whilst the 13 volt car would produce 40 volts(with say 225 watts).

edit: I just happened to notice the 2002 thread date, I am still learning things from this thread though...

Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:57 pm

its gunna b bad wrote: Mmk.
For the capacitor comment, are you saying that everytime I shut off my car the energy in the capacitor is drained by the time I go back into it? (not rhetorical, just trying to understand)

For the alternator, instead of trying to refute it I will just ask a question.
Is that 65 amp alternator producing its 65 amps at idle? What im trying to ask/get after is , is the alternator charging your battery at idle? I would venture to say yes it is...is it more than what is being used at the moment? Im not sure.

Ohhh, I have been shocked many, many times. I personally think I have some sort of electrical resistance built up or maybe a higher pain tolerance than normal, at least when dealing with shocks. When I was a kid I could grab an electrical fence standing on a peice of metal and not get shocked(or a small shock). When I grabbed the post it lit me up though because of the excellent ground. And now I can always grab fences and not get shocked as much as another person, or play with electrical shock toys and not hurt me as bad as another person that tries it. I've always wondered about why that is.

That actually leads me to ask you a question i've been inquiring about for some time. When installing my stereo system I usually ground to some bare metal in the trunk or car somewhere. Now if I were to run cable back to the negative post, would my amp put out more? (Amplifier pretty much amplifies the voltage)
An example of this is if I did a system with the same amp and one car has 12 volts going to the amp and other has 13 volts going...the 12 volt car would produce say 35 volts(with say 200 watts) whilst the 13 volt car would produce 40 volts(with say 225 watts).

As for capacitor question.... IF it is not connected directly across battery, yes it will (probably) discharge every time power to it is shut off.....

For stereo ground connection.... For best performance (preventing voltage drop) use largest gauge wire that is practical and connect directly to battery (both battery and ground).... Usually car body is a ground but it has a certain amount of resistance and causes a voltage drop over distance....

YEP... IF funny how some of these really old threads get us sucked in when they should be allowed to quietly die....

Dale

Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:51 am

Ain't nothing like resurrecting a post that's been dead for almost 9 years.