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Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:25 pm

Dealing with late model Porsches I see BS claims all the time.. Even from Porsche Motorsports components.

Want to get pissed? Spend 3500 bucks for an exhaust system to LOSE 20HP. I see it all the time.

Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:02 pm

The keyboard has created many experts in the last decade or so. Many hide behind the monitor and never share their failures.

Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:10 pm

Buginva play the devils advocate all you want, it does not prove that exhaust is worth buying over a merged unit. In no post do I claim to be an expert, only a fool would make that assumption. And if I recall Jake stated that the exhaust design is subpar to the merged. Guess you don't have the balls to talk down on him, do you? Pull your samba police badge on me all you want, it won't stop me from voicing my opinion. And the next time you go around the block count how many bugs are running that g down garbage. You sound like g downs guard dog. Go fetch.

Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:38 am

I think there should be a seprate thread in Off Topic or elsewhere about "parrots," IMO. The general consensus in this one seems to be the G-Down exhaust is a poor design,and while I'm by no means an expert on exhaust theory, I'm basing my comments on trust of those far more knowledgeable than I. Just the fact that the system is a split-bank (not sure if this is the right terminology, but I'm using it more as a descriptive use, here) design hints to me of a throwback to designs several decades old.

Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:55 am

boogerninja, you mean to tell me that in all 5, 141 of you posts, every last tid bit of advice you gave was purely based on personal experience. nothing you ever told anybody about anything was hearsay.. you seem like the kind of guy that bashes empi (can't be bothered to research any of your post but i'm gonna go out on a limb here) did you personally try every empi part in the catalog before you bashed it, or did you just hear about it sucking and repated it..

if these parrots are really a problem they will show themselves to be stupid and anybody too stupid to see it deserves to fall for it. in the meantime you just come off like an insecure school girl trying to convince the football captain the head cheerleader isn't hot.

Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:57 am

cptcliffhanger wrote: boogerninja, you mean to tell me that in all 5, 141 of you posts, every last tid bit of advice you gave was purely based on personal experience. nothing you ever told anybody about anything was hearsay.. you seem like the kind of guy that bashes empi (can't be bothered to research any of your post but i'm gonna go out on a limb here) did you personally try every empi part in the catalog before you bashed it, or did you just hear about it sucking and repated it..

if these parrots are really a problem they will show themselves to be stupid and anybody too stupid to see it deserves to fall for it. in the meantime you just come off like an insecure school girl trying to convince the football captain the head cheerleader isn't hot.

I've bashed EMPI plenty, and all of my comments are warranted. I don't have to try every part in the catalog to know I was burned on the shit I did buy, nor does buying every part in the catalog change the smart-ass replies from EMPI themselves when they were questioned on their parts. EMPI isn't a good example to cite in this case, I don't think. :lol:

Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:07 am

i'm just saying that maybe you don't need 100% 1st hand experience to be right. Boogerninja is on a "ive built more ACVW than you" soap box, or pissing contest. i'm just pointing out that he is coming off off completely un- cool (tp be PC)

he's not even saying the "parrot" is wrong just that he's only right cause he heard someone else be right 1st. who cares!?

Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:17 am

I was quite enjoying this thread until it descended into the usual split hairs on stuff.

Whether the exhaust is good or not seems to have faded into the background. I personally don't like the look or the sound so I shall not be buying one, but until it's tested on a dyno against an extractor exhaust, it's perfromance characteristics are all hearsay. conventional wisdom from those who have had the experience of dual cannons etc. tends to be that it will not perform well, but, until proven guilty, it's all opinion (granted in some cases it's expert opinion, but still without data)

But actually, thats not the reason I was posting on this thread.... I just wanted to say.....

cptcliffhanger wrote: boogerninja

What a great name for a Band :)

Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:19 am

i wunder what kinda music they would play. :)

Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:09 pm

Any thread that goes past 3 pages becomes a train wreck.

It's time to lock this one.

Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:49 pm

Just refer to my quote in Buginva's sig line.

Buginva and I have had our bouts over the the last few yrs as well. I think we get long fine now, I'm sure he thinks the same. Sometimes we need to just stop blabbing and listen/read, learn and do.

Companies come and go. Life's natural couse will happen, and the weak ones will fall to the way side. I'm all for product review, but for pete's sake.......!!

Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:55 pm

spyvsspy wrote: Buginva play the devils advocate all you want, it does not prove that exhaust is worth buying over a merged unit. In no post do I claim to be an expert, only a fool would make that assumption. And if I recall Jake stated that the exhaust design is subpar to the merged. Guess you don't have the balls to talk down on him, do you? Pull your samba police badge on me all you want, it won't stop me from voicing my opinion. And the next time you go around the block count how many bugs are running that g down garbage. You sound like g downs guard dog. Go fetch.

you are a funny little fellow... I wasn't playing devil's advocate at all, just pointing out that you are spewing for nothing... Why would I "talk down" on Jake? Jake and I have been members of the same groups and boards for many years, but it's a moot point since Jake can tell you what HE learned from using and testing things... You run around this board giving out advice on things you have no experience with.... I've personally seen several threads where you give out engine combo advice while you had a thread running asking folks to help YOU come up with a combo... parroting.. sorry if the truth hurts your fragile ego..

cptaincliffhanger wrote: boogerninja, you mean to tell me that in all 5, 141 of you posts, every last tid bit of advice you gave was purely based on personal experience. nothing you ever told anybody about anything was hearsay.. you seem like the kind of guy that bashes empi (can't be bothered to research any of your post but i'm gonna go out on a limb here) did you personally try every empi part in the catalog before you bashed it, or did you just hear about it sucking and repated it..
the first word of your post shows how the rest will be. Ignoring that ignorance, I'll have to say that I do speak from my experiences and don't parrot. I've not bashed EMPI at any time and have tried very few of their products over the last couple decades. Any other silly questions?

cptaincliffhanger wrote:
if these parrots are really a problem they will show themselves to be stupid and anybody too stupid to see it deserves to fall for it. in the meantime you just come off like an insecure school girl trying to convince the football captain the head cheerleader isn't hot.
despite your witty (in case you don't get the sarcasm see: ----> :roll: ) analogy and well thought out response, parrots *do* hurt folks. When all you see on a screen is a name and some words it's a bit tough to tell who actually has experience, and who is just yammering on. A newb not being able to tell the difference between real experience and regurgitated mis/information does not deserve "to fall for it", and it makes me question your level of integrity to even say that... I'd still recommend against many things in the vw "hobby" to you if you needed help, just to save you from being screwed... All that while disregarding you being a complete and total asshat.. :wink:

cptaincliffhanger wrote:
i'm just saying that maybe you don't need 100% 1st hand experience to be right. Boogerninja is on a "ive built more ACVW than you" soap box, or pissing contest. i'm just pointing out that he is coming off off completely un- cool (tp be PC) I've not stated how many engines I've built, please try to keep it a bit more accurate, or your credibility will begin to suffer too. Do you actually think that calling out a parrot is due to only a post on this thread? Surely even you are equipped with enough gray matter to realize that'd be just plain childish... akin to playing with someones screen name to come off as "cool". I'll give you a hint, it isn't "cool" and it just makes anything you have to say become suddenly irrellevant.
cptaincliffhanger wrote:
he's not even saying the "parrot" is wrong just that he's only right cause he heard someone else be right 1st. who cares!?

you finally got something right with the first sentence. Our parrot can't even see that much. As far as the second statement, you and myself and everyone else should care if folks are just regurgitating something they read and posing it as knowledge or experience, especially if you don't know the difference between what is accurate and what isn't. (another hint: folks that ask for advice are the ones the parrots respond to. Obviously they wouldn't be asking if they already knew.) it's simple, really.
cptaincliffhanger wrote:
i wunder what kinda music they would play. since it's me, apparently, it'd depend on the day of the week and my mood... Likely to be classic rock or even old(real) country/western music, and sometimes bluegrass.... New music these days does very little for me...

Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:15 pm

Hotrodvw wrote: Just refer to my quote in Buginva's sig line.

I keep it there hoping folks will keep it in mind... usually folks get burned by bad advice before they realize that little statement could have saved them some trouble..
Hotrodvw wrote:
Buginva and I have had our bouts over the the last few yrs as well. I think we get long fine now, I'm sure he thinks the same. Sometimes we need to just stop blabbing and listen/read, learn and do..

discussions tend to lead to mutal respect or mutual hate, depending on the parties. The more mature parties are more likely to come out the other end better for the discussion, even if the discussion itself was less than "mature" at times. I like to think that is how it worked out in time between myself and many here. Where is miniman to cuss me anyway? :lol:

Hotrodvw wrote: Companies come and go. Life's natural couse will happen, and the weak ones will fall to the way side. I'm all for product review, but for pete's sake.......!!
a product review would be great... "it's a turd" is a bit shy of a review. I have no direct experience with the G-down and could spout off many comments from threads on the product filled with folks opinions.. If I were to go that route it would be direct quotes to those opnions and not me portraying that it is my own experience or thoughts.

There's nothing wrong with holding an opinion on a product that you've not tried, even if it's wrong or illformed. But as with all opinions, if one wants the freedom to express theirs, then they automatically accept that others may disagree. The comment was made that the makers of the exhaust are not here defending their product, it's no wonder. I'm sure you've seen the threads where folks to pop in to clear things up, or explain their point of view only to be bombarded with folks, usually parrots or folks that have no clue, spouting off things like "it's a turd" or "it can't compare to a merged system".. unfortunately both of those statements show that the poster doesn't have a clear understanding of either of the products they are speaking of. Jake has posted in this thread, he can give you first hand knowledge about how folks can attack an idea or even real hard data when they have no understanding of said idea/data, and have no proverbial leg to stand on. I do still hold out faith that the parrots will eventually either offer up honesty or actually follow some of the advice they parrot and then become experienced members of the group. spyvsspy will soon have his first "performance" engine under his belt. but he's built many of them in posts for other folks... :wink:

Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:17 pm

spyvsspy wrote: Bug would you run the exhaust?
Me? no. But my reasons have nothing to do with the system itself, but does have to do with one of the biggest drawbacks it has. it hangs below the scrubline of my car(air ride). If I were to build an engine for relatively low RPM, or low duration camshaft that's not built for all out HP, i'd have no problem running this exhaust if I had the ground clearance required. It's weaknesses would be much less pronounced in an engine like that. It's all hypothetical since I'm partial to boosted engines these days and a lower stance than I'd be comfortable with running that exhaust.

on a sidenote, many folks have done a "forward" exit exhaust over the years, I did one myself. I used a mid engine header that I modified and split off from the collector to two pipes that ran up to the front of the car to connect to the nice ( :oops: cough :oops: ) sidepipes that I ran in the late 80's...

Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:23 pm

Neither would I.

1. Added weight.
2. Too much tubing. (Succeptable to cracks,rust,etc.)
3. Won't perform as well as other exhausts currently available based on design.
4. Price to negatives ratio not good IMO. (See above)

Those are the reasons that I based my response on. Now I did not test the design but these are the disadvantages that came to mind when I said the turd comment. I should've stated that from the get go but I thought others might comment on that. You could've asked why before you went on the attack. If I was wrong then I would've retracted my comment and apologized.

Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:50 am

IMO, any aftermarket parts testing needs to be conducted as follows:

1. By more than one firm (never go by one firm's results).
2. Road-tested data is required, to simulate driving conditions (never rely on bench/dyno data only).
3. Re-testing should be done when a "change" in the product occurs (old testing may not apply to the newer version of the product).

With the Beetle, VW always road tested changes prior to production and then sometimes made additional changes during production year, even making the changes applicable to previous model years.

It is interesting how on one ACVW internet forum you might find that many people agree about a certain product, or theory, or data. However, if you go to another forum, especially in another country, you will find the that different views hold sway. Often the parts are used differently in other countries, so a blanket statement does not apply. Just look at how the Scandinavians, Germans, Danes, Americans, Canadians, Japanese race their Beetles with different engines, heads, exhaust and cooling systems...and yet they sometimes obtain different results/data...

Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:00 am

Ok so I checked out the videos and I actually like the sound, it has that boxer engine rumble that I like so much. Also, my TriMil 2 tip euro exhaust is WAYYYY too loud and pops and backfires wayyy too much so I will be the guinea pig for the forum and I will pick one of these up. I emailed Claudio last night about ordering the $399 system so when I get my order in I will let you guys know. I am not sure where Jake Raby's shop is but if it is local in south Orange County I will be willing to test this baby out. I have a 1600cc single port motor in my 66' so it's not a beast, but I am sure we can find out if this thing makes any power or not.

Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:25 am

lucille66 wrote: Ok so I checked out the videos and I actually like the sound, it has that boxer engine rumble that I like so much. Also, my TriMil 2 tip euro exhaust is WAYYYY too loud and pops and backfires wayyy too much so I will be the guinea pig for the forum and I will pick one of these up. I emailed Claudio last night about ordering the $399 system so when I get my order in I will let you guys know. I am not sure where Jake Raby's shop is but if it is local in south Orange County I will be willing to test this baby out. I have a 1600cc single port motor in my 66' so it's not a beast, but I am sure we can find out if this thing makes any power or not.

Have it drop shipped to Rabys(Georgia), then work out the shipping details to get it back to Orange County

Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:17 am

did this already get asked;camber compensator+gdown?some of the pics on their site make it look like the two may be mutually exclusive.

Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:22 am

They put up new videos: