TheSamba.com :: View topic - notching the springplate. do you need to to go 1 spline?

Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:43 pm

what is the purpose of notching the spring plate? is it just easier to put back together? or is it to keep it from banging the stop everytime the suspension goes to its totally extended position? i'm going to turn mine 1 spline and prefer to only do it once. hahaha. do you need to notch it to go just 1 spline? thanks,E.

Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:36 pm

Notching the spring plate gives you a little more travel but you dont wanna go past your mas angle on the cv's you have. I have personally never felt the need to notch the springplate but some people will swear by it.

If you are raising your car you will need to either cut and turn the front end or adjusters and you will also need to go up one notch on the back. I have always done one notch on the outer spline seems to work well.

New shocks and you are ready to go

Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:24 am

i had the same question actually.

in "the handbook" hibbard says to position the bottom edge of the spring plate even with the bottom of the bolt hole (IRS)

about how many splines is that?

i have a stock '75 IRS tansaxle can i preload it like hibbard says and ALSO notch the spring plate? (bottom) without over extending my cv joints.

also if i cut and turn the front (1/8") and re index the back will it have a forward rake? or will the front and back be even?
i really dont want the back to look lower so i was hoping it would be level or lean forward slightly.

Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:03 am

What I can't wrap my head around is why notching as little as 3/8-1/2" causes so much extra travel. Why is that?

Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:55 am

They say you should run your suspension 60% compression, 40% droop from ride height. I'm probably 90%/10%. Once you lift your baja, you'll find that you won't have much droop left if any. Notching your spring plates gives you some extra droop. When VW designed the stops on the suspension the stops were put in place to limit the CV angle and shock extension/compression. Change any of this without knowing your suspensions limits can cause something to break. A 1/4" notch is enough to allow your CV's to over extend and rip your shocks apart.

You can see in this picture the the notch allows the spring plate to drop beyond the limit stop:

You can see the horizontal line from before above the spring plate. You can see how just a little changes alot at the wheel.

Before you try this, lift the rear off the ground so that your spring plate is on the stop. Take top shock mount bolt and allow the shock to extend. Mine didn't move alot, and that's all the play you have. If you already have shocks tied into a cage, you may have more travel to play with.

You also need to keep in mind that T1 CVs are only good up to 12*. With the spring plates on the stops, you'll find that they are at 12*. If you notch, you may blow your CVs. I run mine at 15* and haven't had a problem. The 2 CV's on the same axle can be clocked a certain way so you can get a little more out of them...

http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/cv_assembly.htm

Notching, CV upgrade, shock upgrade all go hand in hand. You can get a little more out of a T1 setup, but you need to know the limits.

Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:01 am

I think I understand now. Notching is just so you don't ride on the stops all the time. I guess that would get rather annoying.

Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:05 am

thanks all. lotrat your info is very helpful. now its off to the shop. lets see if we can't do it just once. :P :)

Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:29 am

vindeta wrote:
also if i cut and turn the front (1/8") and re index the back will it have a forward rake?

1/4 inch turn is about 1 inch lift. so 1/8 turn would give you 1/2 inch of lift. I did 3/8 turn, but any more then that and it can be a pain to get you spindles back on and can max out your ball joints.

Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:23 am

Jason C wrote: vindeta wrote:
also if i cut and turn the front (1/8") and re index the back will it have a forward rake?

1/4 inch turn is about 1 inch lift. so 1/8 turn would give you 1/2 inch of lift. I did 3/8 turn, but any more then that and it can be a pain to get you spindles back on and can max out your ball joints.

I went 1/4" and the front end is plenty stiff. I bent my beam and had to do it again. I stuck with 1/4". It's plenty stiff and the ball joint look maxed out to me. The class 11 guys go 9/16", but they replace ball joints regularly.

Here's mine at a 1/4" turn.

How stiff is it? This stiff...

Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:45 pm

Lotrat, that video cracks me up every time. :lol:

Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:46 pm

Jason C wrote: Lotrat, that video cracks me up every time. :lol:

I was laughing when I did it. That's why I fell off. I thought I was gonna loosen up a little, but it never has.

Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:53 pm

since we are kinda on the topic of front suspention too, it was said to turn the front 1/4" on a all joint beam. would you do the same or more on a kingpin beam?

Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:23 pm

well all went well the first time. one spline did the trick. lifted the back right about two inches. i'm sure it will sag again but for now :) . next time i do it i'm gonna go with a bigger/better torsion bar. i see what you meant with the cv angle. when it is at full travel and resting on the stop the out er type 1 cv is just starting to bind up. next'll be to change the flanges and go type 2's on the outer joint. i already have the type 2 inners. oh yeah getting the spring plate bolts started was a pain in the butt :roll: . but with the help of a good friend and a really big pry bar
(5 feet long) and some brute strength they lined up :D .sure did stiffen up back there to. i think i'm ready for bed now and my back is sore,lol.!

Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:08 am

Did you happen to note the position of the of the spring plate in relation to the bottom hole of the cover plate before you put it back together. I have IRS spring plate and torsion bars and I want to put in swingaxle spring plates and torsion bars for more tire clearance on my buggy and I want a good idea on where to set everything so I can hopefully knock it out in one shot :D

Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:01 pm

clemsonteg wrote: Did you happen to note the position of the of the spring plate in relation to the bottom hole of the cover plate before you put it back together. I have IRS spring plate and torsion bars and I want to put in swingaxle spring plates and torsion bars for more tire clearance on my buggy and I want a good idea on where to set everything so I can hopefully knock it out in one shot :D

The first time I did it, I used this technique. It had me on the stops. Way too stiff. IIRC I ended up around 30* of preload. Stock is 20.5*. This added preload gave me about 2.5" of lift. Use the following chart, but run it backwards to calculate lift. It doesn't take torsion bar sag into account though.

I switched over to 26mm short bars. They only needed 16* of preload to get me to the same ride height. That's less than the stock bars at stock height, so they slide on above the stops. I didn't need to wrestle with the spring plate cover.

The off-road ride is alot better. I just need better shocks to deal with the torsion bar unloading from full compression.

Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:46 pm

Thanks for the info. I was considering buying new parts anyways so I could avoid the sag issue. When you are speaking in degrees, you aren't relating to the chart only to what you measured when you placed an angle finder on the spring plate is that correct?

Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:20 pm

Correct. Say you want to add 3cm lift on one side due to sag. You would turn the torsion bar +6 outter splines and then back -6 inner splines. You would put the angle finder on the spring plate to see that you added 5* to the angle of the spring plate.

Torsion bar sag is a pain. It's an unknown that you have to guess at. When you put a new set of bars in, you have to start from scratch. Start out by installing them so that the angle is equal on both sides. You will end up taking the rear end apart a few times to get the lift and levelness just right. I have 3* more on my driverside due to sag and thats on 26mm short bars. The chart works and its better than guessing.

Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:05 pm

Lotrat wrote: Correct. Say you want to add 3cm lift on one side due to sag. You would turn the torsion bar +6 outter splines and then back -6 inner splines. You would put the angle finder on the spring plate to see that you added 5* to the angle of the spring plate.

Torsion bar sag is a pain. It's an unknown that you have to guess at. When you put a new set of bars in, you have to start from scratch. Start out by installing them so that the angle is equal on both sides. You will end up taking the rear end apart a few times to get the lift and levelness just right. I have 3* more on my driverside due to sag and thats on 26mm short bars. The chart works and its better than guessing.

Mine is more going to be for crusing and woodsy stuff so I don't need high speed and high jumps. I need shorter bars for tire clearance. Right now with the buggy on the ground my spring plates are actually about 1/2" off of the stops so I have plenty to play with I think, especially if I get new shorter bars. BTW mine is a swing axle, I don't think it makes much difference when it just comes to setting up the bars but just in case it does. What is a good set of 26mm bars? I saw Moores has some for 130, and Dan's has a set for 300. I am sure you get what you pay for.

Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:04 am

clemsonteg wrote: Mine is more going to be for crusing and woodsy stuff so I don't need high speed and high jumps. I need shorter bars for tire clearance. Right now with the buggy on the ground my spring plates are actually about 1/2" off of the stops so I have plenty to play with I think, especially if I get new shorter bars. BTW mine is a swing axle, I don't think it makes much difference when it just comes to setting up the bars but just in case it does. What is a good set of 26mm bars? I saw Moores has some for 130, and Dan's has a set for 300. I am sure you get what you pay for.

With a swing axle rear, you don't want to lift it too high. You'll end up with alot of unwanted camber.

The cheap bars are made by Latest Rage. The expensive ones are Swayaway. I talked to some folks that ran the Latest Rage bars and they said that they continually sagged on them. The Swayaways will also sag after install, but once they take a set they hold their position. I got a used set of Swayaway bars, beat the snot out of them, and they are still sitting where I installed them. Plus the price was right... free.

Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:17 am

Lotrat wrote: clemsonteg wrote: Mine is more going to be for crusing and woodsy stuff so I don't need high speed and high jumps. I need shorter bars for tire clearance. Right now with the buggy on the ground my spring plates are actually about 1/2" off of the stops so I have plenty to play with I think, especially if I get new shorter bars. BTW mine is a swing axle, I don't think it makes much difference when it just comes to setting up the bars but just in case it does. What is a good set of 26mm bars? I saw Moores has some for 130, and Dan's has a set for 300. I am sure you get what you pay for.

With a swing axle rear, you don't want to lift it too high. You'll end up with alot of unwanted camber.

The cheap bars are made by Latest Rage. The expensive ones are Swayaway. I talked to some folks that ran the Latest Rage bars and they said that they continually sagged on them. The Swayaways will also sag after install, but once they take a set they hold their position. I got a used set of Swayaway bars, beat the snot out of them, and they are still sitting where I installed them. Plus the price was right... free.

That sounds like a price I could handle haha. Im not looking for a lot of lift really, the swap of bars for me is so I can get more clearance for tires.