TheSamba.com :: View topic - new engine break-in and automatic transmission very hot

Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:17 pm

Well tonight I finally started my rebuilt 2L engine and 003 automatic transmission. Engine started right up and I did the 2000 rpm for 20 minutes break-in procedure. No problems with the engine but the automatic started leaking right at the 20 minute mark. The plastic mount for the solenoid valve started leaking badly... however...my real concern is the temperature of the ATF, it was smoking and hissing as it hit the garage floor. I pulled the ATF dipstick and smoke poured out. After shutting the engine down the next stupid move was to touch the transmission pan to see if it was hot. Burned three fingers it was so hot! The transmission was initially filled with 5 litres of ATF, the max I could get in without overflowing the vent. The torque converter would have been dry on startup, I assumed it would fill as the engine ran. The plan was to add the last litre of ATF after the break in. So my questions are :
What was the right way to break-in a rebuilt automatic?
Have I cooked the transmission? Fluid did not appear burnt, just hot.
Could the ATF have been so hot as to soften the plastic mount of the solenoid valve and cause the leak?

Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:02 pm

Wow. Could it have been in gear?

Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:24 pm

Nope, left it in park with the rear wheels up on stands. Maybe I should have run it through the gear selections. I've been searching and if the "one way torque converter clutch fails" it can cause high fluid temperatures. Not sure if the VW TC has a one way clutch but maybe starting my TC dry caused this failure. Hopefully RayGreenwood will check in and provide his wisdom.

Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:14 am

Upon start up you should've gone through all gear selections to completely fill the trans up. Automatics do not require a break in period so I'm no all too sure what the 2000rpm ordeal was for? The trans cooler should have had a fan blowing on it if it was to sit still for long periods of idling. I hate to harp but so much was done incorrectly here that you're lucky if the trans still works after all that. By running a dry trans without immediately shifting through all the gear selections there's going to be some bearings that didn't get oil at all. Good luck on this one.

Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:09 pm

Yes, I sure wish I had run it through the gears. The 2000 rpm thing was to break in the new engine and that is where my focus was. I was busy watching oil pressure gauges ,timing marks, fuel pressure on the engine and ignored the transmission thinking that if it was in Park it was OK. I also just read that if you don't have the gear selector lever on the side of the transmission set up correctly (per Bentley) then one or both of the friction bands can be partially engaged in Park and generate a lot of heat. Going to check that tonight but I think this transmission and engine are going to have to come back out. Don't have a trans cooler on the VW 003. On the positive side the new engine ran nice. I drained the break-in oil and just a hint of metallic sheen could be seen on the last bit drained.

Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:57 pm

all of the automatics I've seen have had a little oil cooler mounted over on the left side underneeth. That may be something you need to look into too.

Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:56 pm

So what is the prescribed way top break a new cam motor in with an auto?

Do I need to run through the gears a time or 2 before the breaking in the cam procedure just to get things lubed up in there?? How many times or for how long? Is it best to do the 20 minute cam dance in neutral or park?

I just put a 2L into a 77 auto bus but am still buttoning things up. I was planning on changing the gear oil and ATF before running it but after reading this post I wonder if I shouldn't wait till after the break in??

Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:57 pm

Some automatics don't circulate the fluid to the torque converter in Park or Neutral settings. Even if the converter is full, it still needs to circulate the fluid, since it (the converter) is the biggest source of ATF heat.

Ditto to the caution to use a fan aimed at the trans; the ATF has no external oil cooler circuit until, what... 1983.5 Vanagons? Hope for the best.

Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:06 pm

After watching 500 cars roll off the assembly line in one shift (300 times a year*2 shifts, two separate model lines 2000 vehicles a day), I can only tell you that a brand new vehicle immediately drives off the end of the line, no 20 minute high rpm burn (would get to hot to work on). Been that way since the 50's... If it didn't drive off on its own it was pushed off and sent to a repair bay.

After I made sure it ran and moved and was buttoned up, I might do that 20 minute cam thing, but they sure as hell didn't do it at VW on the line..

Just my opinion, and I really hope your tranny is ok

Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:20 pm

Emeritusx wrote: and I really hope your tranny is ok
Mine is fine, I just want to keep it that way.. I wasn't the original poster. I wonder how Frozenbutt made out.. Maybe he'll update us.. Good point about assembly lines not breaking in cams though.. I did not do it on my first rebuild (a 1600 in a Thing) and it runs fine 4 years later..

Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:23 pm

I'd supose the initial engine run-in occured before the engine got to the assembley line. Probably even in the engine plant right after building. That is where they would have wanted to find any leaks or problems. And not after it was all buttoned up in the bus.
We do it now to introduce the proper wear pattern to the cam. Without the good run-in there is a big chance of cam and lifter failure.

Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:43 pm

Hmmm.. I did not realize the ATF was not circulated in P or N WestyPop.. Its like a really heavy alien black box too me really.. I worked fine before the rebuilt so I did not futz with it.. Did want to change out the fluids and bottom gaskets.. Maybe I should break the cam in while the rear axles are still off with it in gear or jack up the wheels after the axles are installed and run it in gear so the tranny can circulate ATF to and from the torque converter..

Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:14 pm

Read this thread, same problem:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=389085

Did you have the transmission out? Are you 100% sure the linkage was correctly replaced and the transmission was in solidly in park? Also, since it was on jacks, were the wheels spinning? Probably best they do not spin, either set the parking brake of put the wheels on the ground.

Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:51 pm

Desertbusman wrote: I'd supose the initial engine run-in occured before the engine got to the assembley line. Probably even in the engine plant right after building. That is where they would have wanted to find any leaks or problems. And not after it was all buttoned up in the bus.
We do it now to introduce the proper wear pattern to the cam. Without the good run-in there is a big chance of cam and lifter failure.

No thats not true... Might run 1 out of 1000 They have no oil in them or any fluid at all.. And never did

Edit: Think about it
That be a waste oil nightmare Paint sludge is hard enough to get rid of.. That would be like beau-coup gallons... Your an ornery fellow aren'tcha...

Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:18 pm

You might want to raise the rear end and secure it and do the 20 mins in 1st gear. That way both the trans and cam are covered.

Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:04 am

after you order a new master auto rebuild kit, and contact a torque converter rebuilder....

Question? when you assembled, can you verify engaging the torque converter over final drive hollow shaft teeth and pump shaft teeth when assembling?

if you disassemble you can tell - try to push torque converter forwards before you slide TC off. ---to see if an extra shaft engagement click is noticeable.
try drain/siphon per Bently and compare these fluid amounts.

fluid pumps all the time if spinning torque converter engages solid pump shaft.

you've pooched forward and reverse clutches, maybe haven't soiled the t/c if original amount of fluid was all you removed, but if it wasn't rebuilt, Pro Torque 631-218-8700 LI, NY can.

if you can build an engine, you can rebuild your 003 auto. take your wife & or gf out to dinner, with the money you saved by rebuilding yourself :wink:

my $.02 HTH

Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:07 am

Emeritusx wrote: Desertbusman wrote: I'd supose the initial engine run-in occured before the engine got to the assembley line. Probably even in the engine plant right after building. That is where they would have wanted to find any leaks or problems. And not after it was all buttoned up in the bus.
We do it now to introduce the proper wear pattern to the cam. Without the good run-in there is a big chance of cam and lifter failure.

No thats not true... Might run 1 out of 1000 They have no oil in them or any fluid at all.. And never did

Edit: Think about it
That be a waste oil nightmare Paint sludge is hard enough to get rid of.. That would be like beau-coup gallons... Your an ornery fellow aren'tcha...

I've been led to belive new (and VW reman) engines were run on propane after assembly, how long I don't know. As for oil?, it was likely put in then and stayed in the engine, how's that new bus going to get itself to the train and on/off the boat?

Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:35 am

I dont wanna get off topic so I will not go to far here...

Auto assembly is my forte' I have been doing it since the late 80's and before that I was fixing the computers in the plant.

Yes when it goes off the line all fluids are in it (vehicle) No the do not test every motor, it would be to time consuming. It would be to messy and it would affect the cost significantly.

You guys may know VW's but automation is my deal.. I have been in many plants and that includes trenton engine and fords many engine plants.

We even built a VW plant in mexico, but I was in St Therese at the Camaro plant at that time..

They dont test every engine, or tranny, or spindles or anything... They use statistical analysis and take one per shift, maybe two if one is bad.

Anyway nowhere - nowhere do they run the engine unloaded for a long time to do anything. We drive em on toe in and speedo check but only for about 2 miles, and then they're driven to the dock lot.

Its all about the bottom line.

I wont tell you that I think its stupid to run your engine like that, cuz God knows the experts will all jump in with their lack of proof blanket statements and ridicule me for all eternity...

Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:06 am

Emeritusx wrote: I dont wanna get off topic so I will not go to far here...

Auto assembly is my forte' I have been doing it since the late 80's and before that I was fixing the computers in the plant.

Yes when it goes off the line all fluids are in it (vehicle) No the do not test every motor, it would be to time consuming. It would be to messy and it would affect the cost significantly.

You guys may know VW's but automation is my deal.. I have been in many plants and that includes trenton engine and fords many engine plants.

We even built a VW plant in mexico, but I was in St Therese at the Camaro plant at that time..

They dont test every engine, or tranny, or spindles or anything... They use statistical analysis and take one per shift, maybe two if one is bad.

Anyway nowhere - nowhere do they run the engine unloaded for a long time to do anything. We drive em on toe in and speedo check but only for about 2 miles, and then they're driven to the dock lot.

Its all about the bottom line.

I wont tell you that I think its stupid to run your engine like that, cuz God knows the experts will all jump in with their lack of proof blanket statements and ridicule me for all eternity...

Having been in over 3000 plants in my industry...even I miss a few details.
For instance....almost ALL factories do run-in procedures on ALL engines on a load test cell before they ever leave the engine plant.
You would not see this at an auto assembly plant as most engines come fully assembled from engine building plants.....and are NOT assembled at the body/chassis assembly plants. There are very few vertically integrated automobile plants anywhere on this earth....excpet for some of the luxury car plants that have smalle production numbers and assembly line footprints, china...which also has a few vertically integrated plants where the engine plant is contained in the same complex or building as the chassis assembly line.

I know for a fact that Ford runs their engines in...because I have seen and been in one of the run-in/dyno test cells.
Also....I know for a fact....just for instance......that VW ships all of its TDI engines pre-run-in and fully assembled from Germany to assembly sites in Mexico. All of the watercooled engines for Jetta, golf, mercedes etc...are also run in on a dyno at the engine assembly line in the past. No reason to think they are not now. I know this because I have ordered and installed factory NEW (not rebuilt) engines in crates for numerous vehciles and they are tagged with the run-in information within a coded sticker.
All of BMW's engines are fully run-in, so are Mercedes. They can do numerous engines at one time in one test cell.

So yes...you are correct...there will be no driving and 20 minute break-in at the assembly plant. Engines come in cases or pallets and are put into the car and the car goes to the train.

Statistical process control is NOT used to insure that rings have seated, oil pumps have primed or basic power spec is on target or that an engine is leak free......nor can statistical process even remotely predict these things. Not even close.

There are no machine/robotically assembled engines for any company. All engines for all major car companies are human assembled with electromehcanical aids. This is less than "hand assembled".
For instance, pistons are inserted into bores through precison jigs in full groups in many engine assembly lines. Some are pushed by human hand, some numatically, but the insertion guidea are placed on teh block guide dowels by people.
Even the most electromechanically aided engine assembly techniques cannot compensate for a stuck ring (usuualy due to a ring land issue or ring uniformity issue and not the precison jig and human install).

Statistics cannot predict this...period. And.....a car company...being about the bottom line as you note.....is not going to invest time and labor to install an engine that may not even generate compression.

To add to this, I have installed factory fresh VW and Porsche water and aircooled cams. In the box from the dealer....are proscribed assembly lube and break in procedures which are nearly identical to what is being stated here.
Its a metalurgical fact that the cam and cam follower must be run-in or "patterned" to each other to insure lifter and valve rotation without scuffing of the cam lobe....or outright failure.

While I am sure you are an expert on assembly lines and automation....you are 100% mis-informed on factory engine break-in procedures. Virtually every engine on this planet is run in in some form of load cell....on the engine assembly line.....not the chassis assembly line.

Testing of engines....is different than basic run-in. As you note....maybe one engine per shift...of those arriving at the plant from the engine assembly plat....are tested for output. This is usually a per-shift of assembly or per-lot of engines. Its thee same with the "body-in-white" profilometer areas where 1 body in 100 might be selected for full profile study.

We are talking apples to ornages here. All engines are run-in for break-in procedure. The assembly plants only double check this by doing a random statistical full load test. Ray