TheSamba.com :: View topic - Factory rebuilt KDS 25hp dissection (renamed topic)

Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:08 pm

Over and over, we see these cars in the middle of forests, peoples back yards, barns, farmer fields. Each time it gets me wondering what the history of the vehicle was, what failed to take it off the road? Did the owner lose interest? Health problems? Mechanical problems? Cost? Rust?

We bought a car that had sat in a field for years. As we have slowly brought this car back to life, I keep wondering what happened?

Each component that has been restored was a possibility. The chassis and heater channels were totaly rotted, but that could have come from years of sitting in a damp field.

The clutch tube had broken loose from it's forward mount, but there was a large rectangle flap cut in the tunnel that could have fixed it.

The transmission was suspect, but after a complete disassembly, nothing was worn or broken.

That left the motor. It was locked up tight and was a factory rebuilt so not the matching numbers engine. Hmmm. could something have gone wrong with the motor? No obvous chunks out of the top or sides of the case. There was no oil in the case so that probably explained the seized condition.

After mounting it on to an engine stand and flipping it over, the reason for the lack of oil was obvious. The damp vegitation had rotted the bottom of the case. While this probably led up to the seized motor, was it the reason the car was parked?

The case was packed full of oxidized magnesium. It was the consistancy and color of kitty litter. This explained why it was seized.

Further disassembly showed all the external parts were in good shape and functional. Maybe the problem was deeper inside the case.

After the heads came off (with amazing ease), the answer seems obvious...

While I'll never know for sure, I suspect this parked the car.

Anyone else have a similar curiosity?

Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:17 pm

Reading through this post just gets me to thinking why I have given up on cars over the years and moved on to something else.

Most were just plain worn out and worthless at the time. And something newer or nicer, or just more interesting was available to take my time and attention.

Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:46 pm

wow factory rebuilt with the left handed push rod HMMMMM :-k . gald you have it and are helping it along.

Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:21 pm

I often have wondered about cars that were sidelined. I just restored and electrified a 1955 Metropolitan with my students and we were able to do some detective work and build a theory.

The car came without an engine, radiator, and missing the sheetmetal around the radiator. When we took the car apart I found that the rod from the clutch pedal to the clutch master cylinder was severely warped. Looking through the clutch parts what we surmised was that around 30 or more years ago the clutch began to go and eventually siezed. The engine was removed for the clutch replacement, and then the job was never finished. (this car can be seen at www.theatercar.com)

In the case of my Dad's 356 Porsche which has sat my entire life, he just became frustrated after putting in a huge amount of work himself, and then life took over.

so many cars with so many lost stories.....
-Merlin

Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:32 pm

I have often wondered the same thing about my car. It is a standard so it wouldn't have originally came to America but by the time it was 21 it was already abandoned in a yard here. I know it was in Europe until the late 50's because of the replacement speedo being in km and from a 1954 oval that also donated the brakes and trim. I have know idea what happened and the owner before the guy that I got it from is probably dead so I guess I will never.

Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:37 pm

Interesting thread. Some cars give up their assumed demise easily, while others leave us wondering; some we may never know....

Too bad about the case. Water does nasty things to them for sure.

Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:48 pm

This is an interesting engine. here's what we know so far from this and other threads:

- It is an 1131cc that failed and the car was left in a field to rot for 4+ decades

- The engine has a KDS serial number (VW of Sweden rebuild?)

- The right half case is dated 13 March 1956 (new case used for rebuild?)

- It has a seamed fan shroud

- The 383 distributor has strap-type clips

This engine is worthy of its own thread, as it would be nice to know details (part numbers, serial numbers, date stamps, et cetera) of the various components while this engine is being dissected.

This engine looks like it was unmolested for 40-50 years and is a interesting mix of 25 and early 36hp parts. Here is a good example to learn whether the factory-authorized rebuilds came as turn-key motors or if accessories needed to be transferred from the failed core engine before it was shipped back to VW.

Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 am

I have documented via pictures, every part that has been removed. I'll try to take some time to clean up parts and get specific numbers and post them.

At this point, most everything has been removed but the cylinders (and upper tin of course), the crank pully and the oil pump gears.

Other than the heater boxes,what other 36 HP parts are you seeing?

I'd love any pointers for removing stuck cylinders.

Here are some more pictures:

Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:34 am

What year is the engine??

Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:44 am

Hard to say. It is a Swedish factory replacement (KDS serial number). The casting date on the right half says the case was made in March 13, 1956. The engine number on the generator stand does not match up with any listing I have found since it is a replacement engine.

Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:10 am

nlorntson wrote: Hard to say. It is a Swedish factory replacement (KDS serial number). The casting date on the right half says the case was made in March 13, 1956. The engine number on the generator stand does not match up with any listing I have found since it is a replacement engine.

Would you please provide a little information on the casting date details? This is the first time I have heard that an engine case can be pinpointed to the date of manufacture.

Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:26 am

This casting number is often found on the webbed side (L) of the generator stand.

It is in the form of day month (shift)year.

13 = day

3 = month

26 = year (2nd shift) 1956

0 = 1950, 1 = 1951, 2 = 1952, 3 = 1953, 4 = 1954, 5 = 1955, etc

I'll take a look for the number on the left half of the case.

I found the number for the left half on the case just behind the pulley tin and below the fuel pump hole and it is the same number.

Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:52 am

The year looks stamped to me rather than raised...

Mike

nlorntson wrote: This casting number is typically found on the front side of the generator stand.

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It is in the form of day month year.

13 = day

3 = month

26 = year (1956) 0 = 1930, 10 = 1940, 20 = 1950, etc.

Each half has a number like this. Notice that the year number is raised versus the day and month that are stamped in. I guess it made sense to mark the mold permanently with the year but leave the month and day to an alterable value that could be updated daily and monthly.

I'll take a look for the number on the left half of the case.

Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:04 am

My fingers tell me differently :). The year is raised and the month and day are stamped.

After a further look, I stand corrected. They are all stamped. Sorry :oops:

Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:33 pm

As for why cars were parked...a lot of it was just that the owner couldn't quite part with it, so they just parked it "for now". And that turns into years and years. My Super (I know, blasphemy in the Split forum) stayed in a barn for 12 years, even though it ran and drove. It was occasionally driven, but most of the damage on the car resulted from this barn stay. Eventually the family pulled it out and planned to restore it, but decided to sell it instead. That car stayed in one family for it's entire life, and it's gonna be with me for a loooonnnng time :D

Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:12 pm

nlorntson wrote: My fingers tell me differently :). The year is raised and the month and day are stamped.

I stand corrected. Now that I have a better angle on the number they are all indeed the same. I found the other sides casting number and it is also 13 3 26.

I also found the date stamp on the 383 distributor it was 9F. From this post http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279505

The 9F would be September 1950.

I found a number of some sort on the carburetor; maybe a serial number?

I took a picture of the info on the generator that I have been able to see so far. Date stamp is 12F so December 1950

Here is a part number off the head

And I'm curious as to what this little thing is on the generator. There is something similar on the coil. The Car did have a speaker bolted to the bottom of the dash so I'm sure it had a radio. I suppose these were some sort of noise reducers?

Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:46 pm

Founf my '51 body hanging from the rafters in some guys shop in Western Pa. Hopefully one day I can get the cash together to get a birth cert and find out at least some of its story.

Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:59 am

nlorntson wrote: ...Other than the heater boxes,what other 36 HP parts are you seeing?

- The coil appears to be an early '56 TE6A3, missing the oval hole in the strap

- Is the strap air cleaner the '53-only or the '54-'55 type with the overhanging cover lip?

- The outer generator pulley appeared to have a wide lip in the full engine picture, but a more recent close-up of the generator proves otherwise.

The first digit of the year stamp on engine and transmission castings does not indicate decade, as I have 1950s parts having year codes starting with 1. 2 and 3, which suggests the shift.

By the way, thanks for posting the detailed close-ups with the date codes and part numbers clearly visible!

Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:11 am

janerick3 wrote: - The coil appears to be an early '56 TE6A3, missing the oval hole in the strap

The coil is not a star coil but the strap does have the oval hole.

Janrick3, you mentioned wondering what the process was to put these engines in service. That got me thinking.

This was in an October 49 car delivered to Sweden. Based on how the car arrived, I feel pretty confident that this motor was in it the day it was parked. Most of the parts seem to be from 1950 or later, but the case was cast in 1956.

It would appear that if this was a replacement for the original motor, that parts that were correct for the 25 hp motor but not transferred from the factory motor that failed. I guess that is assuming that this was the replacement for the factory motor.

It's strange that despite the case being from 1956, that they did not include later 25hp parts like the 383 (with the O-ring) or a later generator. Also, the spark plug wires have a sliver cloth type covering. I would have expected oval era rubber coated wires. Another thing I noted were the clamps for the wire tubes. They are also clearly the smaller split era type with the screw type fastener.

What other parts might have numbers that would reveal more answers?

Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:20 am

janerick3 wrote: - Is the strap air cleaner the '53-only or the '54-'55 type with the overhanging cover lip?

Here is a little better picture of the air cleaner. I don't know if this is the 53 or later 54-55.