TheSamba.com :: View topic - New book about Josef Ganz claiming he invented the KDFwagen

Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:18 am

since i'm woefully ignorant about whether this might be true or not, tossing it out here for discussion. Post on Autoblog about a new book claiming a Hungarian-born Jewish man named Josef Ganz invented a car that would be co-opted by Porsche at Hitler's direction.

I've never heard this story, so interested in others here with more knowledge.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/08/ferdinand-porsche-or-an-unknown-jew-new-book-documents-the-fath/

Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:13 am

Interesting article.

Unfortunately, no one is around to question to get the true facts.

Supposedly Ferdinand Porsche and his chief designer Karl Rabe worked together as early as 1911. They both knew about and examined an aircraft engine that could have become the flat four. Other cars had rear engines too, but not all aircooled. None were reliable. Possibly Porsche and Rabe took ideas from everything they knew about including bodies, transaxles, weight distribution, etc. I doubt they directly copied anyones work specifically as it took years of testing to get the VW right from front bumper to rear bumper.

Other than Porsche himself this is, I belive, the original crew
KARL RABE(CHIEF ENGINEER)
JOSEF ZAHRADNIK(STEERING)
JOSEF KALES(ENGINES)
FRANZ REIMSPIESS(FLAT FOUR DESIGN)
KARL FROHLICH(TRANSAXLES)
JOSEF MICKI(AERODYNAMICS)
FERRY PORSCHE(ASSISTANT)
ADOLPH ROSENBURGER(ACCOUNTING AND MINOR PARTNER)

Ideas probably came from all. Regardless where the ideas came from, the Porsche team perfected them all into one car. And, yes with Hitler's money. But, Porsche had thought out the basics before meeting with Hilter.
This is my take on what I've read.

Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:11 am

Harris wrote: Other cars had rear engines too, but not all aircooled.

Most pre-war European cars were rear engine. So the fact that the KDF's engine was out back wasn't unusual.

Many design features were commonplace in the auto industry. I recently saw a pre-war Alfa Romeo up on a hoist. I was amazed at how VW-like the rear swing axle suspension was.

Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:08 pm

I came across this story a couple of times already even in some older VW books.

Some Dutch journalist has been investigating this quite thoroughly and wrote a complete book about it. The local newspapers are picking this up (got an article today from my mom!) and a production company JipiejajeeTV is planning a documentary sometime next year. Here's the site about the story

http://www.ganz-volkswagen.org/documentary.htm

Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:53 pm

I'd like to read this book when it is published in English.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:34 pm

The publisher of this book emailed me today to inform me that the book is going to be available in the USA/UK in December.

Quote: RVP Publishers is about to release a revealing biography of Josef Ganz, the Jewish engineer behind the VW Beetle. The hardcover edition will be available to the public in the UK and US early December.

In the thirties, when Porsche created the VW Beetle, he was more than inspired by the designs of a Jewish engineer from Frankfurt. This genius, Josef Ganz, had created several unique prototypes. Ganz envisioned new simple light compact cars with the engine in the rear. At the Berlin Motor Show of 1933 he presented his Standard Superior, a vehicle that was already officially labeled as a "Volkswagen."

Porsche was very familiar with the revolutionary designs of Ganz. He had even personally steered another innovative creation of this visionary: the May Bug. Ganz used this nickname long before VW started calling "their" car a Beetle too.

Now, for the first time ever, the Josef Ganz story is documented in a revealing book. A biography that reads like a spy novel. At last, be it posthumous, Josef Ganz receives recognition for his groundbreaking work.

The book is in part based on Ganz's personal archive. For several decades it sat tucked away at a home in Melbourne. The investigative journalist Paul Schilperoord unearthed these boxes full of revealing documents and photographs. It took him over five years to research the story and write the book.

You can also read more about the book on our website. Please follow this link: http://www.rvpp.com/books/6

Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:51 am

I would be most skeptical about a claim that only comes to light 75 years after the fact.

No single idea in the Bug was unique to it. The design team had experience with many other makes and designs.

If this combo of design elements was so easy to mass produce then why did no one else do it? They didn't.

Ideas alone don't make cars; research, engineering, testing, manufacturing engineering and good plant design do. Porsche put all the pieces together, something no one else was evidently capable of doing.

One could now cherry pick and make a claim. Seems most self-serving and unfair to wait until those one is impuning are no longer around to defend themselves.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:01 pm

KTPhil wrote: I would be most skeptical about a claim that only comes to light 75 years after the fact.
. This claim has been made by Ganz for decades... IIRC he even (unsuccessfully) Sued VW over this.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:23 pm

I don't think Ganz "waited around" to make his claim. He fled Nazi Germany after being arrested, essentially for being Jewish.

If the Wikipedia page is to be trusted at all, sounds like he was designing something very much like the KDF wagen as early as 1923, which would certainly put it before swing axles and rear engines were "common".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Ganz#Prototypes_and_the_Standard_Superior

Independent wheel suspension, especially of the drive wheels, was virtually non-existent in those days of solid FRONT axles.

The book sounds worth reading, before one decides the claims are frivolous.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:16 pm

From an engineering standpoint, I see very little in common between the car pictured and the VW as Porsche developed it. One can contrive wording to make them sound similar but a cursory examination of the details show that there is very little in common. "Engineering Father of the VW" is to laugh!

I won't enrich a deceiver by buying the book only to find the claims are inflated.

Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:36 am

I am skeptical myself. I mean, that car looks nothing like a Beetle. Many design characteristics of the Beetle have been used in many cars over the last century. Torsion bars were equipped on Toronados. Rear engines were used in numerous applications. I mean, really, should we credit cavemen for the Beetle design because it is equipped with round wheels?

I admittedly don't know the whole story, but it just seems a little too far fetched. Ransom E. Olds was the first auto maker to mass produce automobiles too, but Henry Ford perfected the assembly line. Ganz may have "discovered" many of the design features, but Porsche (presumably) put them all together in a functioning package.

Of course the possibility exists that Hitler didn't want one of those "Jews" being credited for a superior "German" design. In the end, I have a Beetle in my garage, and for that I am thankful. :D

Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:06 pm

Very interesting!! I read "Small Wonder" last year. This will be a great follow up.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:07 pm

Dave24 wrote: KTPhil wrote: I would be most skeptical about a claim that only comes to light 75 years after the fact.
. This claim has been made by Ganz for decades... IIRC he even (unsuccessfully) Sued VW over this.
OTOH, the Tatra company from Czechoslovakia did successfully sue VW for copying parts of their cars. But then, as now, engineers would take apart competitors cars and go to trade shows and get new ideas etc. Not too unusual for cross-pollination of ideas to occur. How do we know Ganz really came up with these ideas first?

One of the strengths of the actual first production KdF wagens, however the design elements were developed, was that it had been thoroughly tested and the design tweaked and reworked so that it was reliable and serviceable. Few people put half as many miles on a car before production as Porsche did with the original beetle.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:38 am

I've read the book and it's a great story, it's an exciting read that gives an insite into what was going on in Germany at the time. Very highly recommended.

After reading the book, do I think that Ganz designed the Beetle and Porsche/Hitler 'stole' the idea from him? No I don't, but I guess that sensationalisation sells books. The book plays down Porsche's work at Zundapp and NSU on a cheap peoples car and instead makes him out to only be interested in racing cars.

I do think however that Ganz had a part in the whole story, what he invented or didn't invent is probably lost in time (he couldn't afford to Patent everything, plus many patents were allegedly stolen from him and aquired by Tatra).

According to the book, Nordhoff was trying to set him up with a VW pension as recognition of his efforts. If Ganz had not been Jewish then he may well have been asked to join Porsche's team and his part would be widely accepted.

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:35 pm

I agree that a lot of Dr. Porsches "ideas" for the Beetle were totally stolen frm Tatra cars.

Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:13 am

808OvalGreasemonkey wrote: I agree that a lot of Dr. Porsches "ideas" for the Beetle were totally stolen frm Tatra cars.

This whole thread is interesting and of course next to impossible for us to verify. But it really gets down to a guy I know - Yeah - I had the whole CarFax idea before they did". And it makes for a nice story, but who cares?

Whether Porsche borrowed ideas or not - he was respponsible for making the "peoples car" a reality. And as mentioned - car makers routinely take ideas from competitors. You do also have a lot of concurrent development. One other thing, smart people don't reinvent the wheel. They see a good idea and run with it. Why not?

Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:57 am

EverettB wrote:

I find it quite ironic that a book about a stolen idea would have a pic of the "theif" on it's cover (Dr. Porsche).

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:35 am

I placed my order. Sounds like a good addition to my VW library.

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:35 am

pre67vw wrote: Quote: If Ganz had not been Jewish then he may well have been asked to join Porsche's team and his part would be widely accepted.

Adolph Rosenburger the accountant, a member of Porsche's team and minor partner, was a Jew. In fact, Porsche helped get him out of Germany when things got bad for the Jews and he later ended up in the U.S..

Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:37 am

The things I've read about Ganz imply that he had a good shot at being selected to develop the Beetle until the Nazis realized he was Jewish. Porsche was only one of numerous people striving to be selected as the designer.