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Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:20 pm

1972 chassis.
Installing urethane diagonal arm bushings, along with rebuilding or replacing the entire rear suspension. Also a one spline re-index.
I have researched extensively on the forum and know the standard answer to ," where do the pivot bushing washers go"? (Two on the outside, none on the inside)
BUT, when I took mine apart there was one large washer/spacer on EACH side of the bushing. The bushings I removed were OEM rubber. Car drove fine and no rear tire wear. Besides driving it was also towed over 3,000 miles.
Has anyone ever seen a car where the washers were NOT together on the outside, but instead had one on the inner side of the bushing as well as one on the outside?
There is a raised area at the thread end on the frame that one of those washers fit perfectly over. Because of this feature the 17mm bolt can still be threaded fully into its threads. The washer in this position would appear to act as a spacer and thrust device.
I have put one back the way I found it, but will wait on the other side until I can sort this out.
Thanks for input and replies.

Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:47 am

If memory serves, the two washers are different sizes, with different size holes. If you put one on the inside, just ensure that it will fit over the pivot. on the inside. If you put them on the wrong sides, the one washer wont bear against the bushing on the outside, and the other won't allow the sleeve in the bushing to slide onto the pivot.

Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:13 pm

Bentley (VWofA) and most other books say both on outside........

This image appears in Bentley manual and in Haynes manual (page 10-23)

Ironically in same Haynes manual on page 10-20 it shows picture below....

With one spacer on each side of bushing (#11) [yah hard to see but trust me they are there in image]...

Think I would put more faith in Bentley manual....

Also if I remember when putting my IRS rear end together, both spacers were identical....

Dale

Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:07 pm

I have two spacers per side and they are identical.
Both will fit over the pivot where the 17mm bolt threads into the frame.
In fact the fit is just right. Fits the same as they do on the bolt itself.
I did not see the page in my Bentley manual with the posted diagram.
However I did read in the Bentley manual to "Make note of the position of the washers ". This would tend to make me think that all washers were not installed the same. And now there is the photo in the Haynes manual.
I am Going back to the Bentley manual after posting this.
I know that the vast majority opinion is to put Two washers together on the outside. However there is enough evidence to make me question if 100% of IRS cars were assembled that way.
Thanks for your replies. Any more thoughts please post them.

Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:25 pm

ok,
tO PUT AN END TO THIS.
i WILL BE REINSTALLING WITH THE TWO SPACERS TOGETHER ON THE OUTER SIDE. Oops, hit the Caps lock.
But, I have noticed something else as a result of this.
My Bentley Manual. I cannot locate any of the diagrams and narrative descriptions that others have supplied for me. The only place I can find anything in my Bentley manual is Pg 55 & Pg 56. And the diagrams and written information is nothing like others are finding.
Is it possible that all Bentley manuals are not yhe same?
Mine is orange, bentley stock # V179, VW P/N LPV 997 109.
Covers Super Beetle,Beetle & Karmann Ghia 1970 thru 1979

Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:17 pm

I've only had two IRS cars but in both cases both washers were on the outside.

Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:48 pm

I once installed them on either side of the bushing. then this happened:

Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:12 pm

This may have been dine to correct an alignment problem. It is normal to place both on the outside. But they are designed to fit on the inside as well. My cousin had a mid-70s Super which had both washers on the inside on the right rear. It was fine in 4-wheel alignment that way though.

Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:32 am

I just removed my trailing arms and there was one one each side of the bushing on the driver's side and only one washer on the pass side. Previous owner must have done it I guess. :roll:

Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:00 am

DD, I had the same confusion about the "Bentley Manual".

I think there are 2 versions, a late model like you and I have very similar to the Haynes and an earlier "Shop Manual" that is more like something a dealer mechanic will use.

I could not find the second type for my 74 but I guess anything that is in it that is the same design, would apply.

Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:46 pm

[email protected] wrote: DD, I had the same confusion about the "Bentley Manual".

I think there are 2 versions, a late model like you and I have very similar to the Haynes and an earlier "Shop Manual" that is more like something a dealer mechanic will use.

I could not find the second type for my 74 but I guess anything that is in it that is the same design, would apply. Quote:
Well If there is a difference I sure wish I had the earlier one. I am new to VW and because I read over and over that the Bentley Manual is the Bible It was the first thing I bought. When I opened it and began reading I thought to myself that it did not seem like official shop manuals I have used before.
I have a four volume repair and parts manual for a 1963 vehicle I have restored. They are the original manufactures manuals and they are amazing.
I was under the impression that the Bentley manual was a reprinted COPY of the original VW manuals. I don't think mine is.
Not complaining, just making an observation.[/u]

Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:53 pm

Well at least I am not the only VW owner in the world that seems to have the washers installed out of the Norm. Though we seem to be quit a minority.
Going with the odds I will change the one already installed and do the other side the same way. ( 2 spacers on the outside )

Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:11 pm

I recently bought a set of 3x3 arms from an outfit that builds them for racing and they were insistent that the both washers go on the outside. I have fought this logic with people over and over because it does not make any sense. But when you by something from a fabricator who tells you that he sets it up with two washers on the outside like the factory built it, I have to put logic aside and install the washers as advised.

Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:52 am

Blu Bug wrote: I recently bought a set of 3x3 arms from an outfit that builds them for racing and they were insistent that the both washers go on the outside. I have fought this logic with people over and over because it does not make any sense. But when you by something from a fabricator who tells you that he sets it up with two washers on the outside like the factory built it, I have to put logic aside and install the washers as advised.
I put both on the outside. Just eyeballing it I can tell that the alignment has changed noticeably. Hope the alignment shop has enough to work with to get it right.

Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:13 pm

Thanks for this post. I just pulled my diagonal arms to facillitate spring plate bushing replacement and thought I had "taken note of washer placement" per my Bentley, but when I got to putting them, I had my doubts. It seemed, when I put both washers on the outside that it deflected the spring plates inboard when the pivot bolt was tightened. I began to wonder if I had pulled both washers off the inside of the arm pivot bolt. Anyway, I'm grateful for TheSamba as a backup resource.

Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:46 pm

here is my take on this deal- the metal sleeve inside of urethane bushings needs to fit onto lip on irs pivot bracket- if you put a washer on the inside, the sleeve does not ride up on lip. I broke two pivot bolts running one washers on each side! since i moved both to the outside, bolts have been good! just my two peso's..

Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:01 pm

I have a question and figure I'll just piggyback in here since it is so close to the subject.
I'm reading and trying to get rid of a bunch of stupid mistakes that came with my project. Looks like red urethane bushings go installed on the diagonal arms, but no upgrade to the outer bushings. I need to upgrade those soon. Looking at things and cannot really tell if my washers are correctly placed, or if there are the correct number of them.
Two photos, pretty clear. Can you all tell me , am I looking at one washer, outside edge, and one inside (wrongly placed)? Or, is that a ridge for the bushing to ride against and not a washer (inside edge)? Do you see two washers on the outside edge? Or, is there only one? I'm thinking I'm only seeing one. Also, if I am missing one washer per side, does any of the parts suppliers carry them?
LEFT
RIGHT

Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:51 pm

This pic is from my copy of Haynes manual for beetle...

Shows both washers under bolt head and against bushing...

Dale

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:39 pm

It does look like incorrectly placed washers. I got used og washers from archway imports in st louis, mo.

Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:32 pm

Ok, thank you. I'll get them pulled out this weekend and reinstalled correctly. I couldn't reall see in there that well, but it looks like I was correct and they are in wrong.
Thanks again guys.