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Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:01 pm

hello does any body know of a good machinest in the southern cal area or any in your area. that would be able to machine the hub on a repro flat 4 petri steering wheel .i want to put 1 in my 50 split but i dont want that adapter to be so aperent.any suggestions would be cool.

Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:09 pm

I would contact John Copello out of Sorora CA, he has done a lot of work for me and does work for Mike at house of Ghia so he is very familiar with VW's. He is on the Samba, I just don't have his contact info on hand. If you can't find it PM me and I will get you his contact info.

Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:02 pm

thanks loren very cool ive seached samba for mr capellos info .i cant seem to find it .if possible when you have his info .can u please shoot his contact number ill really appreciate it.thanks

Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:50 pm

johns username is copellos

Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:48 pm

use a original steering ( later oval one), take it to the lathe and machine the inner part out

http://www.oval56.de/inhalt3.html

Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:42 am

A couple thoughts on it to consider. Yes it can be done, but its alot of work, and not inexpensive work, not many machinists will want to do it, and a machinist is not going to work out how you are going to re-install this original hub into a Flat4 wheel, and that is as big a hurdle if not bigger than just getting down the individual raw parts.

However, the adaptor plate with the internal splines that comes with the Flat 4 kit isn't really that noticeable when installed, just don't install that honking clunky chrome bell housing that they provide to hide that gap between the adaptor plate and the wheel.

With just about every Pealit accessory horn ring I've made to fit these Flat 4 wheels, usually I've just painted this adaptor the same color of the ring/wheel, its inset just a little but it passes much more for original, every owner that I've done this to has been pleased with that, and you can do that easy enough by yourself.

I've thought about making a better solution such as an ivory plastic trim gasket to hide that gap, similar to the original trim gasket that hides the gap between the Pealit ring and steering wheel that I also reproduce, but I question the size of the market to design/fab/tool it, especially when just painting it solves 90% of the perceived problem.

But, I also know that with the plate attached to the back it really extends the steering wheel out alot further from the dash, its really dished deeply, so in one case a couple years ago I turned down the Flat4 adaptor plate it comes with so that it fits inside the Flat 4 hub, that way the wheel sits further towards the dash, and it erases much of that gap when its mounted on the inside. Sorry no pics (maybe next time I do it though I'll post it as a visual aid for others), but as I recall I had to reduce the height of the splines so that the top attaching nut could fit on, and I had to drill/tap 4x holes to attach it internally (couldn't use the allen machine screws they provide earlier for some reason), but it was alot easier to approach that most could do by themselves, without having to pay alot, and the wheel sat another 1/4"+ closer to the dash.

If it was an original Petri wheel for another marque car perhaps I'd go through bigger hoops to go with an original VW internal hub (which has been done), but for a Flat 4 wheel, which has other issues in not passing for original in general, I'd say its not worth it to go through working with and paying a machinist. The only exception here is if a guy like Copello has already done this a half dozen times and has worked out the complete solution, otherwise you still have to work out re-attaching safely inside, which is more complicated than had you just reworked the Flat 4 spline to fit inside the Flat 4 hub.

The other reason why I'd avoid "re-splining" a Flat 4 wheel with a VW hub is that I have/had some concerns over the actual strength of the Flat 4 center hub area, I don't have one here at the moment to recheck but overall this repro wheel is not very structurally robust. It seems safe enough as is, but I'm not sure what spoke areas internally to the hub might come loose, or loosen up (even if you can't see it) once you start trying to adapt a VW hub to fit it.

I'd proceed with caution if you start in here the way you seem to desire right now, and you might toast the Flat4 wheel in trying to do it, but maybe thats the price of trying to go about it that way. I'd either try to live with it with the adaptor plate painted (since it is just a Flat4 wheel that looks pretty good), or go the DIY approach to refit that adaptor inside the wheel with minimal adjustments internally. Its not adjusment work that I'm interested in doing which I need to mention, which is why I'm offering as much info/insight here. Good luck.

Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:36 am

Joe Ruiz did this to a Flat 4 look

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=763857

Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:14 am

Rollo Tomasi wrote: Joe Ruiz did this to a Flat 4 look

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=763857

Thats definitely a nice clean retrofit there, with enough mounting holes for a nice structural fit, and a nice visual aid to go by if you were to do it.

But as suggested up top, its going to get pricey to do the VW spline retrofit, evidently @$700+ or so just to make that gap go away. At least he also filled in the rear casting holes on the outer ribbed backing of the wheel and repainted the wheel so it appears about as close to original as it gets (minus the nickel sized Petri logo on the back).

Its a nice looking job though. Its hard to price what something like that is worth but I'd say he has just about that much money into it to make it happen, or the equivalent in hours should he have done it himself.

Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:36 pm

Brezelwerks wrote: Rollo Tomasi wrote: Joe Ruiz did this to a Flat 4 look

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=763857

Thats definitely a nice clean retrofit there, with enough mounting holes for a nice structural fit, and a nice visual aid to go by if you were to do it.

But as suggested up top, its going to get pricey to do the VW spline retrofit, evidently @$700+ or so just to make that gap go away. At least he also filled in the rear casting holes on the outer ribbed backing of the wheel and repainted the wheel so it appears about as close to original as it gets (minus the nickel sized Petri logo on the back).

Its a nice looking job though. Its hard to price what something like that is worth but I'd say he has just about that much money into it to make it happen, or the equivalent in hours should he have done it himself.

Can someone help me understand what machining has been done to the wheel? I would like to run the wheel but have never even considered it because of the adapter. Is it just the splines that need to be changed? Thanks for any help.

Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:24 pm

You'd have to talk to Joe really about how he approached that one, but the vw hub/spline was cut out of a wheel with plenty of outer meat, then chucked/turned in a lathe and turned down a bit to fit inside the Flat4 inner hub.

How far the VW spline piece was turned down depends, I can't see the pic of the inside of the Flat4 hub though to also see how much was removed from the Flat 4 hub, but it wasn't much if you look at the bottom screw pattern, so its likely more than a bit of material had to be removed/resurfaced from the Flat4 hub to get all the original vw hub detail wanted on the underside. Check the ad here so you can estimate how much came out:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=776464

Maybe Joe would kindly post a pic or send one perhaps with some dimensional cutting dimensions via a pm to folks interested, would help to reduce the cost when heading to your local machinist. You won't really know what process was used until you see the top side, depending on the lathe it could be done that way or it was fixtured/end milled.

You can see from the ad above though he had to fill in the holes on the backside of the outer wheel, so he really went all the way he could on this one.

Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:26 pm

Actually this thread should probably be moved to the accessories forum, maybe more eyeballs over there that might have done this before with more exact info/pics etc.

Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:34 pm

depending on how you look at it, this is not realy necessasary, we make a correct hub for the banjo for pre 59 cars

the main issues with the flat 4 adapter is the outer diameter casting of the insert that fits into the steering column is underside to the column bushing... so no matter how much you tighten the wheel down its going to wobble or rock and feel unconfident... our boss solves all this while correctly tapering down to the turn signal switch for ovals & cars to 1959

If there is enough demand, ill modify our boss for splits with no column turn signal switch...

Anthony / ISP WEST

Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:28 pm

Basically how its being looked at here is what does it takes to make a @$300 repro wheel pass for an original $1500+ wheel.

Generally I don't believe that Flat4 wheels are about being able to pass as originals, at least not today with the greater emphasis on originality or authenticity many are looking for. Flat4 wheels are just fairly nice repro wheels for the money. But because of how they look with any adaptor mounted, everyone knows what they are. The only exception in how they present (as original or not) is when I've been able to add my reproduction Pealit horn ring to these wheels for a customer, the whole wheel then tends to pass as original, at least upon first impression. That too is an expensive upgrade, but with limited original Pealit wheels/rings around, its an option some choose time to time.

The Flat4 adaptor is less robust than what ISP offers, but its less noticeable when painted (although its wobbly). However both still position the wheel noticeably front forward than an original. If there were greater interest in having these wheels pass more for original, you'd have to redesign both the adaptor as well as the Flat4 internal hub in the wheel. I just don't see any way around it the way the wheel is made today, as the adaptors are added to the outside of the wheel (creating that gap).

The wheel hub instead really needs to overlap the steering column bushing face to get the authentic look/positioning needed (like the VW hub is), and thats what new (or more) buyers would be looking for. As I recall also though, the hub on the Flat4 wheel is dished alot deeper than an original banjo, so that overap either has to be greater in the same design, or the hub on the Flat4 center wheel hub reduced in height, to have the wheel sit further back to factory specs.

Folks are just increasingly less interested in reproduction items that aren't passable for original. Given original banjos are very difficult to locate today (especially Pealits), I'd say a complete revision/retool to the Flat4 wheel might be a good idea in today's market, just not sure what to exactly expect in terms of increased sales. But if done right, including removing the holes on the backside of the wheel rim (as Joe did), and adding in the factory holes to accept a Pealit horn ring perhaps someday, my bet is alot more Flat4 wheels would sell if the current price point could be held.

For now, Joe's retrofit is a bargain at the price for the quality of the job (and time spent) in my opinion, its as close as it gets for $500+ less than the price of an original, that is if you can find an equal quality original. Other than that it would be great at some point if someone would share information on the details on how to retrofit a Flat4 wheel with a VW splined hub.