TheSamba.com :: View topic - Engine Pulled after oil light and knock...UPDATE W/PICS

Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:41 pm

I have a 1972 SB with a 1600dp engine. german rebuilt 34 pict-3 and 009. What I have done to it: dropped engine and replaced rear main seal, o-ring, oil cooler seals, replaced all fuel line, installed rebuilt carb, tuned, timed. Not really all that order, but those are the high points.

I just received shifter bushings and reverse lockout plate and was going to install tomorrow morning. My wife called and told me to meet her for dinner and to drive the beetle because I never drive it. Instead of taking my truck, I listened and took the beetle.

Always starts up great after pressing the gas once then turning the key. Fires every time even in 30 degree mornings. Idles perfectly and sounds great. No leaks anywhere...no spot leaving on this beetle.

I drove to town and cruised at 55mph the whole way. Got into town and the oil light came on rolling up to a stop light. I was going to pull into the parking lot by me to check it out and I got stuck in 2nd and the car died. I fought and got it out of second. Started the engine again and it started hard...sounded like something was spinning if that makes sense. It started and I pulled 30 feet into the lot and parked. I walked to the back and the engine was knocking loudly and idling really bad. I turned the engine off quickly because the knocking did not sound good. Got the truck and towed the beetle home and will take it to my shop tomorrow.

Where do I start? I know while I am there I will get the shifter stuff installed, but the engine sounds bad. If you need a video posted to see/hear, I can in the morning maybe, but was hoping for some diagnostic help.

Why would the oil light come on and the knocking start so loudly so quickly? The engine was strong and tuned beautifully before, then wham.

Thanks

Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:00 pm

obvious suggestion: it's out of oil. you said it doesn't leak, but does it burn any? when was the last time it was checked? they don't hold much, so there's not a lot of room for error.

Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:02 pm

kind of a stupid question but did you check the oil ? is it getting hot?

Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:11 pm

Not a stupi question. I forgot to mention that the oil level is fine. The engine did not feek hot when I checked the oil after this happened.
I could handle the dipstick just fine. I keep a close eye on the oil level, so I know it is and has been good.

Could it be that the pump has gone and it is not lubing the engine?

I am reading through John Muir and I am hoping it isn't an overhaul needed fix.

Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:14 pm

My 61 once began knocking bad, seems a ring on #3 went and wore its way through the piston head to the top of the piston. Litle chunks of it slapped against the cylinder head, making an awful racket....

Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:25 am

I will check obvious points of noise in the morning. If this looks like a rebuild, I don't have the time for it. Any suggestions on vendors? I have been looking at the classifieds and washington vendors. I will be in Seattle soon, so maybe I can find something that way.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:20 am

Your description of the oil light coming on, the loud knocking sound, a strange "spinning" sound while trying to restart are leading me to some failure the cause oil starvation and consequent rod and main bearing failures.

That this all happened right after you replaced the main seal and other things raise the possibility that it those repairs are somehow involved. The "spinning" sound in particular sounds like a spun #1 bearing, which is right there next to the seal you replaced.

It could just as easily be a coincidence like an oil pump drive failure unrelated to anything you touched.

If there is a good shop local to you, my first recommendation would be to have them rebuild your engine. With a local shop you don't have to ship an engine and you can talk to the guy face to face. If he finds something interesting, you can drop in and he can show you.

Max

Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:14 am

In 1986, my 10-year-old 1835 engine developed a case crack while on the way to california (from they way they machined the case for bigger bores back in 1976); that engine was based on a 1970 B engine case, and had a claude's Buggies integrated Maxi2 oil filter/oil pump. Anyway, I decided to order a shortblock engine bored for the 1835 cylinders, and requested it have a flat cam and NO oil pump, as I wanted to re-use the CB filter/pump. Yep, it came with an oil pump installed; I pulled the oil pump, installed the Maxi2, installed everything, drove it a few years. Then, one day, about 300 yards from my house, oil light came on and I immediately turned off the engine. I pulled the VW home, pulled the oil pump, and figured out that I was I numbskull for not noticing that the shortblock had a later-style dished cam, so the CB oil pump shaft was really not long enough to fully engage, and just wore down. I called CB for a replacement, they were out of stock, so I just found an oversize oil pump for dished cams with same 26mm gears as the CB pump and installed that gear, has worked fine ever since. So don't overlook the chance of a mis-matched oil pump gear.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:22 am

Everything is leading me to think engine rebuild. I have not been able to find any shops locally that work with these engines. I live in Moscow Idaho which is on the border of Washington by Pullman. The closest city that has a shop is Spokane and that is a 2 hour drive. I have several emails to places in Seattle since I will be there in 2 weeks for a weekend to see if anyone there can do it.

What price range is it normally to get an engine rebuilt vs purchasing a rebuild and leaving core?

I am gettin close to travel season with my job, so I don't have the time and would like to square this away before I put it in storage for winter.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:49 pm

it sounds like a spun bearing to me also. I would rebuild the engine myself but i have the time to do it. But it is alot more cost effective to build it yourself.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:53 pm

Should I decide to rebuild myself, what kind of cash am I looking at? I have never rebuilt an engine, but am sure I could figure it out with forum help and all my books.
What would you guys suggest I start out purchasing so I can get stuff I will need for sure to me before I start?
I have 0 access to parts locally. Nobody carries vw beetle parts, so I would be web shopping. This is why I want to get stuff before, so I don't start and then have to wait a week for parts. Then go again, then wait.

Any tips on what I should be sure to get right off would be helpful.

Muir talks about machine shops doing much of the work. Is this true? Will I not be able to do some of the work? I have access to a farm shop, so we have lots of tools.

I figure I can work on the rebuild off and on all winter while the car is in storage.

Thanks

Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:19 pm

Stefan, it's impossible to know what you will need before the engine is apart. Sorry.

If a bearing has spun, you will likely need skilled machine work done on the case where that bearing will have caused damage. Likewise, the bearing journal on the crank will also have been damaged and require more machine work to clean up. Both of these operations will affect what specific sized bearings you will need. It even possible the case or crank are damaged beyond practical repair. You just can't tell before it's apart.

This is assuming we have GUESSED correctly about the spun bearing. Plus you don't know yet what the root cause was.

Doing your first rebuild under a time constraint is a recipe for disaster. If there isn't a good aircooled VW shop within 200 miles or so, I guess your best option may be to order a long-block from somebody. I've never done it that way so I really can't recommend anyone from first-hand experience.

Once you have a fresh long-block for the car, you can take your time with the broken engine.

Max

Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:02 pm

Sounds like you spun a rod bearing. You will not know if the case is salvagable until you tear it apart and have the case inspected.

Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:46 pm

Ok, so update. I got the car up on stands and started it. The wheels were spinning and the noise was awful. I dropped the engine and noticed when I was pulling it that the flywheel and clutch are still in the bell housing. There are metal shavings in the bell housing and back of the engine. Pics below. What am I up against? I need to get everything out of the bellhousing, but is it just replacing the clutch and maybe pressure plate and gland nut, or am I looking at serious damage?

I guess that explains the loud knocking and oil light coming on. Any input is always appreciated. I am looking for ideas, so I can go back out and get the stuff out of the bell housing and clean up and start a parts list.

Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:01 pm

Your pictures aren't that clear/sharp, but reading the whole thread (you state you replaced the engine oil seal, etc., before all this happened) it sounds like your gland nut wan't tightened sufficiently, and the flywheel worked loose, and that caused your oil loss (you state it wasn't connected to the engine, but had stayed in the transmission bell housing). I can't tell from the phot if the threads inside the crankshaft are damaged, if so, that's serious as that would need to be replaced.

Flywheels can come loose from improper tightening torque, out-of-round dowel holes/bad dowels.

Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:43 pm

When you replaced the flywheel what ft-lbs did you torque the gland nut to?
Pictures are not clear but it looks hosed to me. Dowel holes are elongated as well. Good luck it look like it's time for a teardown.

Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:34 pm

Any ideas on getting the flywheel out of the bellhousing? I am going to get the engine back to my house, throw the bug in winter storage and work on engine.

I can't get the flywheel out for the life of me. Onece I get it out and home, I will take detailed pics with a good camera.

Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:01 pm

yauchzee wrote: Any ideas on getting the flywheel out of the bellhousing?

Push in the clutch? Tighten up the cable to get more throw out of it.

Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:24 pm

looks like the threads are gone

Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:58 pm

Got the flywheel out, car in storage and engine in my basement shop.

Yes, I changed the rear main seal. First gland nut I tried with a cheater bar, busted it. Second gland nut, it took to my FLAPS and asked to have it torqued to 400 ft lbs. I am guessing he didn't get it there.

I think I will spring for the torque meister for next time. Lesson learned.

The threads have some shavings in them, but they don't look bad. I will see when I am back to the point of installing. I am going to detail the engine and paint the tin and fn housing during the evenings this winter. The bell housing looked fine when the fly wheel came out.

If the threading is fine and all is back together to spec, should I be fine, or is did I posible f up inside of the case as well? I am hoping I can clean and reassemble and be ok.
Thanks for all the tips and help. Sometimes it helps to walk away from the car and talk it out and ask rather than going at it full steam.