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Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:31 pm

I'm replacing a 3 rib with a 3 rib but my starter is now short by @3/4inch. My best guess is that someone put a 6 rib bell housing on it. My questions are

1. What is the part # for the longer starter? (short starter is a 16450 in cardone speak)
2. Will this bell housing affect my flywheel/starter engagement? (my flywheel is a type1 200mm set-up)
3. Why did vw change this set-up? were there any advantages?

I'm not trying to debate bosch vs. local rebuilds vs. anything else, just to get some straight forward Vw centric info that was not available during a search.

I also no longer have my origional transmission because I sold it awhile ago. This trans has been regeared for a lower cruising rpm, I just didn't figure the rebuild house would toss a 091 bellhousing on it to screw me up.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:47 pm

SR 15(X=rebuilt) or the FLAPS generic 16450 as you know.

and SR 87(X) is the later style which changed with the flywheel on 2.0L and the trans change.

http://www.google.com/search?q=sr87X&ie=utf-8&...=firefox-a

I am not sure what you need to do though... :? wrong bell housing and early flywheel sounds like a mess but I am sure someone who has ran across this delima will chime in.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:53 pm

why not just swap the bell housings and resolve it that way? There may be a reason that the bell housing on the old one is different.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:28 pm

Parts are scarce here in the mid ohio area. If people have a trans they want 250 just for a junk one. The starter looks centered in the pilot bushing but just misses it by 3/4 inch in theory the longer starter should work. Does anyone know if there was a tooth count difference between the 1800/2000 flywheel and the 1700? That could be my only deal breaker in using this because I am stuck using the flywheel patterned off the 1600dp engine. This trans was modified and used on a 2.0 so that's probobly why this bell housing is used, must be something special about the later engines that f'd up the whole works.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:34 pm

VW went to the deeper bell housing to contain the larger 228mm clutch assembly used with 2.0 AC engines and the WBXers in the Vanagon. If you are not running that clutch you do not need the deeper bellhousing. You will find other problems when you try to fit the deeper and longer bellhousing/tranny unit into the bus. As SGKent suggested just swap bellhousing and be done with it. Someone must have the correct bellhousing for your set up for sale either near you or in the Samba classifieds, it is probably only a few phone calls away.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:44 pm

Yes, to use the 091 bell you need the flywheel and clutch to match. I found a 6 rib yesterday for $100, and was considering the swap. You'll do better to find an 002 bell...plus the starters are cheaper!

Here's the best bus tranny thread @ the Samba, oddly located in the Graverobbers (offroad) forum...it's a great read.

Graverobbers Forum

Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:42 pm

That thread has all the info I was looking for.

The long starter is a 16458 and has to be ordered from most parts houses.

It looks like I'll be fine using this starter with all my earlier components. Even though I'll be stuck using a harder to find starter I'll gladly pay the extra 10 bucks to avoid swapping all that mess back. I may need to upgrade the clutch set-up later and it may be nice to have the extra space then.

My starter should be here tuesday and I'll report back then on how things go. I'm really just wanting to get the thing cranking to do a compression check and see how far I'm tearing my engine apart.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:10 pm

chazz79 wrote: That thread has all the info I was looking for.

The long starter is a 16458 and has to be ordered from most parts houses.

It looks like I'll be fine using this starter with all my earlier components. Even though I'll be stuck using a harder to find starter I'll gladly pay the extra 10 bucks to avoid swapping all that mess back. I may need to upgrade the clutch set-up later and it may be nice to have the extra space then.

My starter should be here tuesday and I'll report back then on how things go. I'm really just wanting to get the thing cranking to do a compression check and see how far I'm tearing my engine apart.

Your entire transmission package is going to be a bit longer if you stick with the newer 091 bellhousing. This is not the end of the world, but must a accounted for. You may have a clearance problem with one of the frame cross members and you are going to need to shorten your shift rod a bit.

Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:00 pm

Quote: I'm replacing a 3 rib with a 3 rib but my starter is now short by @3/4inch. My best guess is that someone put a 6 rib bell housing on it. My questions are

I don't get it. You pulled one out and it fit correctly before you pulled it out - right? You said you are "replacing a 3-rib with a 3-rib." That implies you have a 3-rib that you pulled out.

Pull the bell housing off the one that came out and put it on the one you are putting back in. Problem solved.

Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:16 am

Will this help?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=379093&highlight=

Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:06 am

I bought this transmission because it has lower gearing and will be better suited for my engine conversion. It was used with a 2.0 so that's why someone set it up this way. It's just an 002 with @ a 4.50 r&p. I sold my origional transmission a year ago so I don't have the old 002 to tear apart. I'd have reservations about destroying a good working transmission anyway. It's an unforseen blip in my conversion process. The simplest cure is to just buy the starter that works with my setup and hopefully that's coming tuesday. The crap part of the deal is that this starter that's used on 76+ busses is kinda rare and should it fail, it'll take a few days to get it in.

Maybe that's why they were always push starting the bus in Little miss sunshine?

Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:11 pm

Quote: I sold my origional transmission a year ago so I don't have the old 002 to tear apart.

Sorry to hear that. Since I haven't done the conversion I can't speak for it but there are other differences with the 091 bell housing vs the 002. If you haven't done so already, bolt up the shifter and clutch cable to be sure they will work and that it does not change the length needed on those.

Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:18 pm

You don't have to "destroy" the tranny to change out the bellhousing. This is a very simple procedure and requires no special tools and minimum mechanical skills.

Also, since when are starters for 091 trannies that hard to come by. Maybe south of the border where the 228 clutch wasn't commonly used, but up here in the states, it should be no problem.

Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:24 pm

I'm not on the west coast so I can't walk into a vw performance store (one on every block there I hear). Everywhere I called has it as a special order 1-2 days away and the standard 002 starter is a shelf item. When it comes to locating a bell housing then re-using my old starter (that's kinda iffy anyways) it just makes more sense to buy a new starter and wait on it. Even if I had my old 002 I couldn't justify tearing apart one good trans to make a usable one for me. Either way I'd still have a bastard 002 laying around with an 091 bellhousing on it. The shifter isn't affected by this trans arrangment and the support bar isn't an issue as I'm building my own to support a 2.3l ford. The 1/2-3/4 inch difference would've given me more clearance around the pulley area but I've already mocked stuff up and to switch back to the other style bell housing would give me a good deal of rework on everything else I just completed.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:33 pm

Here's the starter and some proven info about them.

Both have 9 teeth and the same diameter. The only change is the lengthened shaft. It's @1/2 inch longer to compensate for the increased bellhousing depth.

The late starter does turn a type1 or 4 12v flywheel without any issues.

Here's the new starter attached to my ford 2.3l with a esslinger kit on it. I'm a little ahead of myself with the starter but I wanted to do a compression test before tearing it down any further.

Thanks for the info folks but in the end it was just easier to buy the right starter to fit my bell. I'll just have to remember later when this thing goes out.

Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:53 pm

saw this ad. FYI - guy has a spare 002 bellhousing.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=874164

Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:52 pm

Starter years, length differences and part numbers questions come up every once in a while. The Bentley service manual seems like it has that information.