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Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:36 am

Okay, here's the skinny:

I bought my bus back in 2006, around this time of year. It's a 1978 Westfalia Deluxe, CA edition, 2.0 FI all stock. I use it for work, putting up to 100 hard miles of stop/go and long freeway driving on daily. I believe, looking at the original paperwork, that it also only has ~ 170K original miles on the engine. I know that when I bought it ~100k, the engine was gone over and rebuilt (I never got the paperwork for this as the past owner did the work as part of the purchase arrangement). At the beginning of this year, Jan 09 the engine dropped a valve and I had new heads put on.

Now the important part, a couple weeks ago, my catalytic converter started to rattle (I didn't know it was the Cat as I've never actually worked on the bus myself, aka noob). After having run the bus a couple weeks after this, I took the bus to my mechanic and he diagnosed the awful running as a blown head gasket, upon taking the head off though, he asked me to come down and take a look at what he found. What he showed me sent shivers down my spin... The #3 piston had a nice sliver of metal shaved away from the top, almost as if someone took a chisel to my poor engine :cry: He then informed me that that the whole affair was probably caused by my cat which overheated the engine and damaged the piston. I had him reassemble the engine so I could take the bus home and think of some options.

Now, I know that I should have taken a picture while the engine was still apart, as that could have helped... But what I can grasp by what I saw is that the piston will need to be replaced. And since that involves cracking the case I might as well invest a little more and get a balanced set.

I'm young and mechanically inclined, and have been doing my research (Bought lots of recommended literature, I've been on the Samba for years and did search lots of type IV rebuild stuff, etc etc). I'm pretty sure that if given help with choosing the proper parts, tools, and such I could probably do a rebuild myself. If it would be easier just get a new longblock for cheap (Prefer the word inexpensive) that would also be an option.

Now, my largest questions would be these:

Can I get away with just replacing the cylinders/pistons (Would this even be wise)?

If not, what else might I look into to replace as well? Bearings, seals, cam, crank, rods etc etc?

Since I've read about the Camper Special engines, would it be possible to perhaps make an upgrade on the engine while I have it cracked (and still be legal/pass smog here in CA)?

If it is, how much would these parts tally up to, as I'm a poor starved hard working college student on a budget?

Yours Truly,

Micah

P.S. This is my first post, so YAY!

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:59 am

Welcome.....Did your piston look like this? (but probably not as bad?) This was caused by dropped valve seats.

mam89 wrote: I took the bus to my mechanic and he diagnosed the awful running as a blown head gasket

Get a new mechanic!

Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:51 am

There are many things that can damage a piston. Anything that causes overheating and/or knocking.

You can replace the pistons and cylinders without splitting the case. Having Adrian or Hoffman upgrade your heads is the most expensive and important step in moving towards a Camper Special engine. The rest of the upgrade if you want to fully go that route can be bought as a cam/valve train kit, and requires that the block be split. There is no outward difference in the appearance of a Camper Special from a stock engine so it will pass visual and so long as the emissions are right it should pass the rest of your emission test. Not really legal though.

73kombi wrote: mam89 wrote: I took the bus to my mechanic and he diagnosed the awful running as a blown head gasket

Get a new mechanic!

If he has head gaskets and they blew it would certainly cause problems with the way it runs.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:22 am

if all you need is one piston to patch it up (unlikely but hey lets dream) I ahve one good bus piston, new. no rings, no clips, no wrist pin, just a brand new mahle piston. if you need it, gimme postage, if not, I'm holding onto it for my own emergencies.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:39 am

mam89 wrote: At the beginning of this year, Jan 09 the engine dropped a valve and I had new heads put on.

I guess I was thinking maybe back when he had the heads put on, maybe the mechanic just bolted them over the damaged piston...add to that the fact that it was #3, notorious for dropping seats.

mam89 wrote: The #3 piston had a nice sliver of metal shaved away from the top, almost as if someone took a chisel to my poor engine

I added my pic for reference as he doesn't have one, but it sure looks like someone took a chisel to it.

Maybe I should have been clearer in my first post?

Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:45 am

Wildthings wrote: If he has head gaskets and they blew it would certainly cause problems with the way it runs.

Do those metal shims (gaskets) actually blow?

Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:50 am

73kombi wrote: Wildthings wrote: If he has head gaskets and they blew it would certainly cause problems with the way it runs.

Do those metal shims (gaskets) actually blow?

They blow often enough that a VW tech bulletin revised the head installation procedure to eliminate them. Almost no-one still uses them.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:08 pm

73Kombi- Actually, it kind of looks like that except the gash is right in the center of the piston, so unless I have a very interesting head with only 1 valve I doubt it was that, and I did actually look at the head when it was removed (my mechanic had it on the table near by) and it looked just a pretty as the day it was installed (minus staining).

As far as needing a new mechanic... I agree, and that is why I'm taking the extra steps to teach myself how to work on my own bus 8)

Wildthings wrote: You can replace the pistons and cylinders without splitting the case.

That just set me at ease! I was worried I would have to crack the case, but if I don't I know I can definately do the work myself. *Phew*

What kind of upgrade would that be for the heads? Would they be my heads just machined? or completely new heads (They're probably out of my price range but I'm still curious).

Also, I'm pretty sure I'll want to get a set
fusername, thanks for the offer though.

I've been running gaskets since I got the bus, like I said it's 100%, stock just about, which is what made it such a tasty deal. I'm starting to come around though from the "Stock" ideology and realizing that I need a reliable bus more than anything. I've heard about going gasketless, but I couldn't really comprehend how I'd go about doing that. If there's a simple premade set of pistons/cylinders I could get that would be awesome, as far as machining... I wouldn't have the faintest clue of where to go and get any of that done/how much it would would run in cost.

Also, thanks for the quick replies, :D

-Micah

Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:38 pm

Micah,
Get Tom Wilson's book on rebuilding your motor. You will find that it is written for the folks just like us that want to know and maintain our motors. Easy reading and a great resource. If after you read through some of the steps on the area's you are faced with and are aprehensive, then when you take it to a wrench you will be better informed. Cheap insurance I say.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:09 pm

mam89 wrote: What kind of upgrade would that be for the heads? Would they be my heads just machined? or completely new heads (They're probably out of my price range but I'm still curious).

The full upgrade would be larger valves with better springs, guide, seats, etc. You could also go with just getting better quality component but in the stock size if you want to save some buck. I think the full up grade is about $800 for the two heads if your cores are in A-1 shape.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:53 pm

RocketRod wrote: Micah,
Get Tom Wilson's book on rebuilding your motor. You will find that it is written for the folks just like us that want to know and maintain our motors. Easy reading and a great resource. If after you read through some of the steps on the area's you are faced with and are aprehensive, then when you take it to a wrench you will be better informed. Cheap insurance I say.

I did get it :shock: And I have been reading through it, and the shop manual, and "How to keep your VW's Alive"... I'm pretty much set on literature.

I've been reading Tom Wilson's guide nonstop for about 3 days now, trying to become at least familiar with the parts and what they do. So far I've also gotten that the stock pistons are 94mm bore(?) and that is what I should replace them with?

I've also been looking through Jake Raby's store too, and I see that he has a set of mahle pistons for $306. I'm guessing these would have gaskets though, so how would I get around that? Something to do with lapping the head/piston/cylinder? Could I send my pistons and heads somewhere and have them do that for me, or would they need the whole engine?

So far I've got that I can pull the engine (ratwell has an awesome wright up for that which I've read, and so does all the book's I've bought), replace the cylinders/pistons without cracking the case and should look into having my heads upgraded. Is there anything else that should probably be upgraded while I'm at it?

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:52 pm

josh wrote: Almost no-one still uses them.
I never knew why they were re-called so thanx...I just didn't assume his mechanic would have used then in January.

Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:34 am

mam89 wrote: I've also been looking through Jake Raby's store too, and I see that he has a set of mahle pistons for $306. I'm guessing these would have gaskets though, so how would I get around that? Something to do with lapping the head/piston/cylinder? Could I send my pistons and heads somewhere and have them do that for me, or would they need the whole engine?
Easy for you to do after you get all the parts. You just need some valve grinding compound to do it. Put the cylinder into the head with some compound between the mating surfaces and turn it 20-30 times in half turns both directions. Clean it up really well after and you are good to go..

Check your end play and rod clearances then decide if the bottom needs work. If I wazs sinking money into Raby heads, I would do the bottom end too but that is just me..

I used Raby heads and the valve train upgrade on my last rebuild and they are awesome. I shoulda just got the camper special but I was trtying to rebuild cheap at first but I lost a cam lobe and had to do it all over again. Woulda been cheaper for me to just get the CS and do it once but live and learn. I am very happy with my final product and I learned alot. Enjoy the rebuild and take your time.

Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:54 pm

kevin77westy wrote:
Easy for you to do after you get all the parts. You just need some valve grinding compound to do it. Put the cylinder into the head with some compound between the mating surfaces and turn it 20-30 times in half turns both directions. Clean it up really well after and you are good to go..

That's it?? Okay, then I can definitely do that myself. That is with the stock size everything, correct? And then I don't need to install head gaskets? That's very cool!

I'm probably going to use my year old heads that I've already got, simply because I can't afford Raby heads, wish I could though...

Already sent a message to HAM Inc today, probably going to call Adrian too just for good measure (He is closer).

After I have all the information on parts and the like I'll drop my engine and start workin' maybe this Saturday.

Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:46 pm

mam89 wrote: And then I don't need to install head gaskets? That's very cool!

Did your "mechanic" actually give you the failed gasket he diagnosed? Surely he couldn't have re-used it to put your head back on...I'd like to see it. Can you post a pic of that?

mam89 wrote: I'm probably going to use my year old heads that I've already got, simply because I can't afford Raby heads, wish I could though...
JR doesn't do heads....Head Flow Masters does.

mam89 wrote: After I have all the information on parts and the like I'll drop my engine and start workin' maybe this Saturday.

Are you dropping the engine because you have a scratch on the piston surface? really? Surely your mechanic fixed the head gasket problem by removing the blown gasket that he installed back in January....

Keep in mind I am driving on that piston in the pic I posted for the last 3 months...7,000 miles and still rolling.

Good luck kid.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:07 am

mam89 wrote: That's it?? Okay, then I can definitely do that myself. That is with the stock size everything, correct? And then I don't need to install head gaskets? That's very cool!

No that is not it, there is more to it than that. Once you remove the head gaskets you need to check your deck height and make sure that your pistons are not going to hit against the head and than your compression isn't so high that you will get uncontrollable knock. You adjust your deck height be installing shims between the cylinders and the block. Not hard at all to do, but it needs to be done.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:22 am

Yes, the mechanic originally replaced the head gaskets back in January with new ones, which I have since found very unwise. One of those new ones that were installed at the begining of this year had supposedly failed because of heat related issues: my cat converter pretty much disintegrated and stifled my exhaust. I've already contacted Emico about that and am just waiting for my paycheck, I'll also need a new muffler as mine is some aftermarket trash...

I contacted HAM inc about the heads, I know that Jake doesn't do heads except his specialty ones, I'm only interested in his piston/cylinder set at the moment. Maybe save some shipping and get some other things from him also.

I have to say I'm not as brave as you 73kombi, :oops: . I would rather just spend the money now and have some intact New pistons instead of what I assume could easily be 30 year old ones running my bus. I also wouldn't want to risk any metal flaking off and damaging the cylinders.

Thanks Wildthings for reminding me, I'll have to get a measuring doohickey for checking deck height (add it to my list of tools to pick up tomorrow). I thought I had read up on that in the Wilson manual, and it didn't seem very hard, just time consuming.

I really have no idea what all went into my bus (another reason to take a peak), and as I learn more and more about all the little nuances that make these beasts purr I have to say I'm becoming OCD about what I want to go into my vehicle. That's really what led me to decide I need to work on it myself.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:07 am

mam89 wrote: I agree, and that is why I'm taking the extra steps to teach myself how to work on my own bus 8)
-Micah

Words of wisdom above as no one is going to treat your bus as well as you would. With that being said, is seems you are jumping into this rebuild before doing all your homework. I don't want to sound discouraging, but I would re-read Wilson's book, digest and UNDERSTAND the information again, then attempt this project. Again, no disrespect, but if I were going to give this rebuild success "Vegas odds", I'm betting 5 to 1 that you'll have a post rebuild thread on here within the first 1000 miles inquiring about the next engine disaster. Your asking a lot of questions that are covered in Tom's book.

Now with that being said, do it, but do all your homework first with just a little more research/understanding so you don't loose the investement of what parts you're considering replacing.

mam89 wrote: I have to say I'm not as brave as you 73kombi, . I would rather just spend the money now and have some intact New pistons instead of what I assume could easily be 30 year old ones running my bus. I also wouldn't want to risk any metal flaking off and damaging the cylinders.

Good point, but how old or more importantly, what is the condition of the bottom end?

mam89 wrote: I really have no idea what all went into my bus (another reason to take a peak), and as I learn more and more about all the little nuances that make these beasts purr I have to say I'm becoming OCD about what I want to go into my vehicle. That's really what led me to decide I need to work on it myself.

We can all relate to that and in this case OCD is a healthy obsession. I'll throw out an alternative to everything that has been mentioned. Consider buying a POS longblock from one of the mass vendors. Understand that they all suck and if you're lucky you may get 30k miles out of it. Even if it's only half of that, you get your bus up and on the road and it gives you time to rebuild your existing motor on the bench, plus some extra "core parts". With the original motor I would start thinking about a CS kit for Raby.

Either way you go, we all wish you luck and it sounds like you've already found the best resources to get you on your way (Samba, Ratwell, ACTech) Good Luck

Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:12 pm

Considering that your engine already has 170,000 miles on it, and that you drive it 100 miles per day it would be a good idea to invest in the Raby Camper Special engine kit. Any repair you do short of a complete rebuild is probably going to last less than a year.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:29 pm

Do it once.
Do it right.

Or don't do it at all.