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Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:36 pm

Jake Raby wrote: Do it once. Do it right.
Do you just google search the forum for your name every day?

Ego, you gotta love it. :wink:

not really

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:41 pm

I want to say that HAM won't touch bus heads that have been used, and Len? is the one who will? grah i Don't know, you're about to find out. only one of the two bus head rebuilders (worth going to) will touch used BUS heads.

that being said, spend all your money on heads. if you don't have enough to cover the ~700 bill, then use AA pistons instead of Mahles, but you need to spend that money on heads.

or just buy new heads and replace the valves and use your old keepers retainers for the cheapest route, although valves+retainers springs keepers is the best bet. the AMC parts are junk, only the castings are quality.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:46 pm

I don't understand why the kid needs new heads....they were new in January...no?

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:01 pm

73kombi wrote: Jake Raby wrote: Do it once. Do it right.
Do you just google search the forum for your name every day?

Ego, you gotta love it. :wink:

not really

What about my statement expressed ego? Anyone who has tried over and over again unsuccessfully to patch an engine up will agree with my statement, especially those who finally do the job correctly and experience the difference themselves.

Let's just say that I am constantly aware of my surroundings, anyone who plans on being effective over the long haul should do the same.

A little invention called Google alerts makes it easier.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:16 pm

Jake Raby wrote: What about my statement expressed ego?
You're not that stupid Jake...
Jake Raby wrote: Anyone who has tried over and over again unsuccessfully to patch an engine up will agree with my statement
Raises my hand!!!!! I actually enjoy driving my bus around the country, fixing it when need be...I meet great people that way.
Jake Raby wrote: A little invention called Google alerts makes it easier.
Yeah....I know your Ego (google) lets you check when someone uses your "name in vain".....

Puhleez.

I could respect you more if you actually were tryin' to aid people that were driving buses around the world.....but no, you just wanna put down folks that do just that, and peddle engine parts to kids with more money than creativity.

peace

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:18 pm

i had forgotten his situation. I thought he had new heads that had dropped a valve and been repaired recently. Maybe he can get one of the rebuilders to play w/ his heads. they still need new valves.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:36 pm

Thanks for the information, yes it may seem that I'm "jumping into things" but that's only because my bus is my only transportation at the moment and I want to fix what I know is wrong, now, before something else goes terribly wrong...

It's really killing me, but I don't have the monetary means at the moment to do a full rebuild, Camper Special style (even though I'm sure Jake still doesn't sell CS's in CA for buses that need to be smogged). I will be doing the top end and I'm going to definately end up doing the bottom end when funds permit (in a few months hopefully). Would this be feasible, or would having a worn bottom end possibly kill everything?

What I'm thinking is I'll probably gain tons of valuable experience doing this first pull of the engine. I think if I bite off too much the first go around I will probably be without my vehicle longer than I would prefer.

Last of all, 73kombi...

mam89 wrote: I'm a poor starved hard working college student on a budget

And I would prefer not to be placed under uncreative also, since I do have the imagination to do the work myself instead of have a mechanic do it half*ssed

I respect all those that have given input so far, I asked for all sides and have gotten lots of ideas =) Thank you everyone!

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:43 pm

mam89 wrote: And I would prefer not to be placed under uncreative also, since I do have the imagination to do the work myself instead of have a mechanic do it half*ssed
There is this old dead dude, called Albert, that has a nice quote...beyond all that M=EC2 carp... :wink:

Simply put, "Imagination is more important than knowledge".

Good on you for getting into the grease!

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:35 pm

There are two primary groups of modern VW Bus Enthusiasts..

1- The group that drives the Bus around on its last leg with shit falling off of it, running on 3 cylinders and burning more oil than fuel. They deal with break downs and accept engine failures that occur fairly often, because they feel "Its just a Volkswagen" and its supposed to leak oil and break.

This group of people and I are not on the same page and they don't like me or my attitude of doing things rights or simply not doing them, because they are generally described as "minimalists". (Last time I checked I didn't care what they thought, they can love me or hate me but their input won't change me)

2- The group that doesn't want to be a part of the the horror stories they read about the same engine problems popping up time and time on forums like this one. Most of these people have families or at least a Wife that would not accept a mechanical problem leaving them on the side of the road. This group of people is generally willing to spend the required amount of money to create a vehicle that will take them on their adventures to various parts of the world R-e-l-i-a-b-l-y without the need for spare parts or hundreds of pounds of tools.

The second group of people are the next generation of VW Enthusiast, and the group that most appreciate what we have created with the Camper Special and what it brings to the Vintage VW that is to be applied in the modern world of 70 MPH speed limits. To create a vehicle that can be applied in today's modern world effectively takes more than a good power plant, it takes the proper gearing, tires, sway bars and brake upgrades all applied with the correct mind set.

One thing is for sure, you'll never see a CS powered bus with parts falling off it. The people who join the Camper Special Club are generally organized professionals who love to D-R-I-V-E VWs more than they like to work on them.

Engines wear evenly.. When the top end is worn; guess what? So is the bottom end... Because they both have the same mileage. I have emails directed my way multiple times per week that come from people who have attempted to save a dollar or a few days of time and have ended up spending 3 more dollars and wasting weeks of time by half ass patching an engine up. Thats why we say the "quickest way to spend a thousand dollars is to try to save one".

BTW- The CS combination was derived from knowledge applied with imagination and outside the box thinking. It's flawless reputation was earned honestly.

Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:05 pm

Is there a middle ground? Is it possible for an amateur to build a stock engine for say $2000 that will be reasonably powerful (stock power) and reasonably reliable for 50,000 miles or more?

I ask this purely for information. I worked in the auto repair business for years and am very aware that you get what you pay for. This is not to knock anyone or question anyone's bona fides. It is purely a technical question.

To put it another way, is there a scale that runs from cheap junk parts-good quality parts- even better custom made parts? Or is it an either/or, cheap junk/top of the line deal?

Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:08 pm

Sure..

The key when finding middle ground is knowing exactly where compromise can be applied and where it can't be.

The two areas that can't be skimped on at all with any TIV engine is the camshaft/ valve train and cylinder heads.. These two things are what helps the CS achieve it's results.

You can machine cranks, machine rods and etc without ill effects most of the time as long as the work is done correctly with close attention payed to tolerances.

You pose a great question and have done so with tact, thanks for that..

As for doing the work for 2K, that **may** be a possibility **if** you have a solid core engine.

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:01 pm

Rusty O'Toole wrote: Is there a middle ground? Is it possible for an amateur to build a stock engine for say $2000 that will be reasonably powerful (stock power) and reasonably reliable for 50,000 miles or more?

I ask this purely for information. I worked in the auto repair business for years and am very aware that you get what you pay for. This is not to knock anyone or question anyone's bona fides. It is purely a technical question.

To put it another way, is there a scale that runs from cheap junk parts-good quality parts- even better custom made parts? Or is it an either/or, cheap junk/top of the line deal?

I think it could be done for $2000 stock - but you have to make a lot of assumptions.

Assume you have a good, clean, workspace to do the work yourself and some good tools to measure the clearances and such (dial calipers, micrometers)

Assume your rods and crank and case and oil pump are in pretty good shape

Assume your heads are good cores

This is back of the envelope, I haven't look up all these costs exactly:

Figure $700 for Adrien's heads
$300 new Mahle P&C
$300 stock grind web cam and lifters
$30 cam gear
$80 gaskets
$100 bearings, german
$200 machine work (polish or grind crank, rebush rods)
$200 balancing
$80 new valve adjusting screws

There you are $2k should about cover it minus the required sealants/solvents/shop supplies

Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:18 pm

Wow, those last few posts just about covered ALL the bases I was wondering about. Now I don't have to ask myself, ha!

I pulled the engine today, it was a real PITA for me because I didn't have any help, and I fell into a few pitfalls (Engine didn't want to stay on my jack). Now that I know what to do, next time will be much smoother.

Now all i got to do is fix stuff (easy), and try to figure out how to put the darn thing back in (a little harder?)...

I didn't figure in everything wearing evenly, but I have this question: If my pistons did fail because of an outside influence (stifled exhaust) what would be the effect on the bottom end components? Would that have put greater stress on the crank/bearings and the camshaft? Or would those parts have been getting the regular amount of usage? I ask this because once I did find a problem, which was very quickly, I took my bus off the road so as to keep any unnecessary harm from being done. Was I correct in doing this, or does it even matter?

I greatly respect you Jake for your contributions so far. And I would love to fall into the #2 category that you listed, I believe that I deserve to have a reliable vehicle to drive around in as well as something that fits my personality (My bus is me). I guess I'll just have to continue saving penny's until that becomes a reality.

Thanks for your help everyone, and the support is awesome!

Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:53 pm

Whether The bottom end is good is a guess at best. I guess it comes down to how much you trust the PO and how good your maintenance has been.

I would at least pull the flywheel to see if the oil galley plugs have been replaced with threaded inserts. If not, wouldn't even think of running without tearing the engine down, replacing the plugs doing the best overhaul I could budget.

Here's a thread that shows what I'm talking about.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=372743&highlight=galley+plugs

The old plugs can fall out and you lose all your oil in seconds. That's not good

Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:33 am

Well now that you have the engine out the next step is to take stock of what you have, before you go ordering parts. Don't make any assumptions yet, but don't split the case unless you are certain you have to.

Get the heads off, take the pistons and cylinders off, take the lifters out through the bores, you should be able to get a good idea of what you are up against. Shine a flashlight into the case and take a look at the cam lobes, measure the endplay on the crankshaft, measure the ring-lands on the pistons, and the gap on the rings.

You say you replaced the heads recently... presumably with rebuilt. Inspect them carefully for signs of dropped valves, broken studs, etc. May be easiest to the the heads to a machine shop that knows VW's for examination, if there is one near you.

Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:09 am

The cylinder heads equate to about 1/2 the cost of the CS kit and will always be the most important and most expensive part of a Bus engine build..

ALL YEAR len has seen one pair of cylinder heads that were used in a Bus application that were worthy of reuse.. If you look hard enough and in the right places you'll find the cracks and issues that'll be the deciding factors 99% of the time.

You simply can't ask a head casting to push around a 2 ton Bus for more than 30 years, being worked on by Chevy mechanics and driven without any instrumentation..

Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:14 am

WhirledTraveller wrote: Inspect them carefully for signs of dropped valves, broken studs, etc. May be easiest to the the heads to a machine shop that knows VW's for examination, if there is one near you.

I agree here. Rimco isn't too far from where you are and have a decent rep with VW's and the price isn't too bad.

FWIW: Im savin my nickles for a CS for my original engine, and throwin a "it was running before I pulled it" motor in for now just to roll 8)

Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:16 pm

Jake Raby wrote:
You simply can't ask a head casting to push around a 2 ton Bus for more than 30 years, being worked on by Chevy mechanics and driven without any instrumentation..

I agree completely, I say the last head's I had on the bus and what happened to the valve. And I can only imagine what all the camping gear I toss in my bus when I take it on trips must weigh. :shock: I was looking at VDO oil temp and DD CHT gauges last night, and I think I'll push myself into investing in some of those.

I'll start dismantling the engine this afternoon, and hopefully I will be able to get it down to the long block. If I have time I'll also remove the heads and pistons. Definitely want to check everything over as you said WhirledTravellor.

I want to do this stuff right, so I think I'll wait another 2 weeks or so before I can finish (next pay period). By then I'll most likely know all my engines woes and also how to fix them too.

Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:50 pm

You can't rush success; but you can damn sure rush failure.

Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:03 pm

Okay, today I got all the IF components off, and I honestly have no idea how I'm going to get some of those components back on :? The bolts underneath the manifold were a real pain to get to and I can only imagine how to get them back on.

After that I took the dizzy and oil breather off per the manuals instructions. Tried to loosen the bolt on the alternator to start taking the fan housing off and got stuck... literally... Some gorilla had tightened the p*ss out of the adjusting bolt on the alt and I was afraid I'd strip it if I wrenched on it any harder. Searched through the garage and found some penetrating oil, sprayed a fair amount on both sides and waited. And waited. And waited... Got bored and started taking all the cooling tin off the rest of the engine. Got everything off, and exposed the square nut on the back of the alternator, decided enough was enough and took a wrench to it and broke the seal with a few good tugs on the bolt. Imagine if my belt had broken on a trip and had to change it... Definitely not good...

I'm pretty much down to the long block minus the fan housing and exhaust now, also I'm wondering what some of the little parts of the FI are. I've been searching through ratwell's site and here. Is the temp sensor II the little tiny thing that bolts onto the drivers side head? Also, some of the plastic on my female connections of the wiring loom are beginning to chip and break from age, is this normal or should I be worrying/searching for a new loom?

At this point are there any specific things to be looking for? Pieces of tin, FI components, flaps, etc etc? Any tips?