TheSamba.com :: View topic - First Dub! Ton of Q's ....... You have been warned!

Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:25 pm

So I am finally getting to my first and onlt VDUB. Its a 71 Super. Only rust I can find is the shelf right behind the back seat. Has dents just about everywhere but looks like they should come out pretty easily with minor filler work.
Question #1: With the help of a come-a-long and straps to the roof of my garage is it feasible to remove the body by myself? I really just want to clean the pan up and put new seals between the body to do it nice and right the first time.
Question #2: Got EMPI adjustable lowering struts w/rabbit struts. I want it LOW, wife wants it stock! We are compromising with being able to drive across a speed bump with just enough clearance to "make it". What slot is recommended for a first try? I was thinking 3rd from bottom which seems to be about 2.5" or so.
Question #3: relates to #2, I was thinking 2 outer torsion bar notches should level it out seeing how it has the super bloody nose front height. At 2 notches am I going to need to extend my swing arms to reduce tire lean? I am not into that look that much, although I don't mind a little bit of lean if necessary.
From reading around on here with my IRS I should be able to adjust most of it out but not sure of all?
Got the disc brake kit for the front. Am I going to need a proportioning valve or will the master cylinder handle it?
"Edit: The disc brake kit is not an EMPI. It was put together by a local shop using off the shelf vw parts and a machined caliper bracket."

I am shaving the "outhouse" vents off, removing all stainless trim and am trying to locate early tail-lights/turn signals to "tone down the super look". Building a pretty much stock 1600 DP with Kadrons I picked up for pennies.
Got some EMPI DP intakes, the provided a rubber hose for a balance tube. The Kadrons came with a SP intake setup that has a steel tube permanently welded between the sides. The throttle return spring is hooked to this. Should I find some aluminum tubing and duplicate this? The motor in the car had SP heads on it for some reason!? so I temp installed the intake and carbs on it and everything fits. I have the ability to weld aluminum so its nothing to fill old holes and weld piping between the 2. What do you think? Stick with the rubber or do it my way and make it cleaner? I am thinking about polishing the manifolds while I am at it, leaving just 1 EMPI logo on each side.

I know I'm full of q's but hey gotta start somewhere right?

Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:51 pm

#1) EMPI is shit.

#2) Go through this sticky that's located at the top of the forum.

#3) Using the Samba Search will help you find a lot of answers.

#4) The Paint/Body forum has many answers to your body question.

#5) See this guy for quality seals.

Also, your car is a 71 Super, it has very few styling cues that indicate it's a "Super", so shaving the vents, and installing earlier tail light housings is a bit extreme, but that's up to you. The 1970 and earlier housings aren't that much smaller.

Also, post up some pictures.

Oh, and EMPI is shit. Some searches will show that to be true ;)

Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:55 pm

The lights I am looking to install are the EARLY EARLY EARLY ones. The tiny little blips for turn signals on the front fenders like 50's era, probably similar for tail-lights.

Aside from a bit of cleaning up grinding I see no quality problems with the EMPI stuff. I will modify pretty much everything a little bit anyway so that is a mute subject. If I see a weld that looks a bit weak, I'll burn a new one through it. Really, how can you screw up a tube with a ring machined into it?

Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:36 pm

Generally, EMPI is not very good quality anymore. A lot of years ago it was OK, but most of it now is Chinese with poor fit and poor finish. The materials are sub-standard and you will get vary little use out of their products before they fail or it's rusted. These guys were not trying to be a**holes, they are just trying to steer you in the right direction.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:37 pm

Paul Windisch wrote: These guys were not trying to be a**holes, they are just trying to steer you in the right direction.

True. A simple forum search for 'Empi' turned up 965 reasons why Empi is crap:http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?search..._chars=200

Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:58 pm

I saw those results when I searched EMPI before my purchase. Sure they might have a few products that dont fit quite right. Anybody making aftermarket stuff can have that problem.
The WAY it was said is why I said they are assholes. There is this little thing, which apparently is not common anymore, called TACT. If you are of the opinion that something isnt great quality that another person bought, copy and paste the link BEFORE making a comment such as #1 EMPI IS SHIT!. Express areas of concern that the buyer should look at before installing the parts. EMPI IS SHIT does not help me at all. EMPI makes some good stuff as well as some bad. I checked and I got good stuff. Easy as that.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:11 pm

MoparFreak69 wrote: I saw those results when I searched EMPI before my purchase. Sure they might have a few products that dont fit quite right. Anybody making aftermarket stuff can have that problem.
Not for years on end. Not with nearly every product they make. Even products produced by reputable sources which Empi blatantly copied are crap.
MoparFreak69 wrote: There is this little thing, which apparently is not common anymore, called TACT. If you are of the opinion that something isnt great quality that another person bought, copy and paste the link BEFORE making a comment such as #1 EMPI IS SHIT!.
What you seem to fail to realize is that we in the ACVW community are by-and-large a very tight-knit group. If everybody I know in the community has been burned by Empi, I'm just going to come right out and say Empi's garbage. And by 'garbage' I don't mean 'minor fitment issues'. By 'garbage' I mean 'can't be made to work properly, even by trained professionals'.
MoparFreak69 wrote: Express areas of concern that the buyer should look at before installing the parts. EMPI IS SHIT does not help me at all.
Yes it does. Empi's parts are of such sorry quality as to not warrant a detailed explanation, for the umpteenth time, of what went wrong. That's what the 965 search hits are for.
MoparFreak69 wrote: EMPI makes some good stuff as well as some bad. I checked and I got good stuff. Easy as that.

Your opinion based on...what? One purchase you made? Have you installed tha part yet? Have you put any miles on the part yet? Look, if I wouldn't trust Empi to make trim parts for my car, I Goddamn sure ain't gonna trust 'em with suspension parts, which my life might depend on! Empi was once a great name in VW parts. Now, they're synonymous with crap. Cheap chinese crap. If you continue to feel differently, I would put it to the gentle reader that you have a very low view of quality auto parts.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:22 pm

MoparFreak69 wrote: I saw those results when I searched EMPI before my purchase. Sure they might have a few products that dont fit quite right. Anybody making aftermarket stuff can have that problem.
The WAY it was said is why I said they are assholes. There is this little thing, which apparently is not common anymore, called TACT. If you are of the opinion that something isnt great quality that another person bought, copy and paste the link BEFORE making a comment such as #1 EMPI IS SHIT!. Express areas of concern that the buyer should look at before installing the parts. EMPI IS SHIT does not help me at all. EMPI makes some good stuff as well as some bad. I checked and I got good stuff. Easy as that.

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. You need to read this thread before continuing. You asked questions that are quite common, and had you done any searching would have yielded answers (ie. whether or not you can remove the body yourself, etc).

Speaking of tact, telling people they are assholes when you're new to the forum isn't helpful. Also, consider the following:
MoparFreak69 wrote: The lights I am looking to install are the EARLY EARLY EARLY ones. The tiny little blips for turn signals on the front fenders like 50's era, probably similar for tail-lights.

Aside from a bit of cleaning up grinding I see no quality problems with the EMPI stuff. I will modify pretty much everything a little bit anyway so that is a mute subject. If I see a weld that looks a bit weak, I'll burn a new one through it. Really, how can you screw up a tube with a ring machined into it? You're basically stating that the EMPI parts you bought are not of good quality and need to be modified. That right there tells me it's junk. If it doesn't bolt up to the vehicle/application right out of the box, then it's bad quality. But, if you have to tell yourself that you "got the good stuff" in order to sleep at night, well that's your problem.

Also, you need to lighten up. Don't come to a public forum asking an opinion and then get upset because you don't get the answer you want.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:26 pm

It will bolt up just fine. The grinding I am referring to is getting the burrs out of the inside of the intake manifold. Not low quality, just not a high performance finish job.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:27 pm

Anyway.....

MoparFreak69 wrote: ...Building a pretty much stock 1600 DP with Kadrons I picked up for pennies.
Got some EMPI DP intakes, the provided a rubber hose for a balance tube. The Kadrons came with a SP intake setup that has a steel tube permanently welded between the sides. The throttle return spring is hooked to this. Should I find some aluminum tubing and duplicate this? The motor in the car had SP heads on it for some reason!? so I temp installed the intake and carbs on it and everything fits. I have the ability to weld aluminum so its nothing to fill old holes and weld piping between the 2. What do you think? Stick with the rubber or do it my way and make it cleaner? I am thinking about polishing the manifolds while I am at it, leaving just 1 EMPI logo on each side.

I just finished a DP 1776 with dual Kads. Went with a engle w110 cam and pretty much everything else stock 'cept the exhaust and it runs great. If you could post some pictures of the rest of what your describing above, you'll get more specific and, uhhhh ....'helpful' responces.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:34 pm

Sure thing cabby, as soon as I get a chance in a day or 2 I will post some pics. Thanks for the decent response!
Other than the Kadrons I am sticking with a pretty stock motor for reliability. A friend recommended the higher ration rockers and I am considering that as an option to buying a new cam (at least for this engine).

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:08 pm

You are all entitled to your opinions on the quality of EMPI's parts. I personally can vouch for the parts I bought which I feel are of the same standard of quality that the factory parts are. My opinion only. Of the millions of parts they sell every year, 965 accounts of fitment issues is not a bad record in my book anyway. I consider them like Harbor Freight, you can buy certain things from them, but not everything. Anything that I feel may affect the safety of my car, from ANY manufacturer will stay on the shelf as far as i'm concerned.

Basically all I am saying is that the statement #1 EMPI IS SHIT is a very untactful way of voicing your opinion. If you have seen this question a million times, hit the back key and ignore it. Simple as that. Forums are supposed to be for support, not heckling. If I wanted heckling I would go to work!

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:24 pm

MoparFreak69 wrote: EMPI makes some good stuff as well as some bad. I checked and I got good stuff. Easy as that.

What empi parts do you consider 'good'?

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:24 pm

MoparFreak69 wrote: Basically all I am saying is that the statement #1 EMPI IS SHIT is a very untactful way of voicing your opinion. If you have seen this question a million times, hit the back key and ignore it. Simple as that. Forums are supposed to be for support, not heckling. If I wanted heckling I would go to work!

By your logic, once a new member asked a question we'd seen 'a million' times, we shouldn't chime in. This website would be quickly reduced to circular discussions by people who have little experience with the cars they're building. All the 'old timers' would have to butt out. That would be a disservice to you , and the VW community. I guarantee you that unless you're a crusty old geezer (and I do mean geezer) there are a few people here who have been wrenching on VWs longer than you've been breathing.
Sure, we see the same questions asked frequently by people who have yet to master the intricacies of the search button, and that's just life. But where people get 'jumped on', is the situation we saw here this afternoon:
New guy comes in, knows bupkus about VWs, asks questions, gets answers that may be more curt than he's used to, doesn't like the answers he got, accuses the answerers of not knowing their business, cusses a bit, storms off, convinced VW guys are assholes.
Truth is, most of us aren't assholes; we've just been down this same road before, with no indication that anything's going to change. Empi could miraculously start making beautiful parts tomorrow that function like a dream, but I doubt it. So I continue to steer people away from them in strong, curt language.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:28 pm

I have been burned by EMPI enough that I will not buy any EMPI branded products again. No offence to new ACVW owners (yes, this means you 69), but most newbies start off buying EMPI because of price and it "looks good" only to learn later. Been there, done that.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:33 pm

MoparFreak69 wrote:
Basically all I am saying is that the statement #1 EMPI IS SHIT is a very untactful way of voicing your opinion. If you have seen this question a million times, hit the back key and ignore it. Simple as that. Forums are supposed to be for support, not heckling. If I wanted heckling I would go to work!

Do you not think advising someone as to which parts are garbage is not support? Gary's post was not heckling you he was advising you that EMPI is not the company it was 30 years ago.

It was purchased from the original owner and all manufacture went to china to get the cheapest parts possible. All this to cash in on the name that was made famous for quality by it's original owner Joe Vittone. 99% of what they sell now is garbage. EMPI were not cheap parts when the company was founded. Have a look as the NOS parts, there is a reason they demand such a high dollar, this current crop will all be junkyard material.

I am sorry you bought their parts but they are not anywhere near the quality of the OEM. If you only want opinions that agree with your own then start your own forum or don't post. This is a public forum and you can not dictate the responses good, bad or indifferent. Good luck

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:35 pm

Ahem...getting back to the topic at hand...

MoparFreak69, you asked a lot of questions about making it "great", and performance, stuff, but getting a new beetle, there's other stuff that needs to be done before you drive it.

(I'm not clear on if you have an engine in the car now...)

If you have an engine:
- warm it up, change the oil
- next day, when the engine's cold, go through the tune-up procedure
- jack the car up and adjust the brakes
- bleed the brakes and get the brake system filled with new brake fluid
- adjust the brakes while you're doing that
- replace all the soft fuel lines
- replace any fuel filters

It's easy to get caught up in fun stuff but it's important not to neglect the items that make the car safe and will make it run for years to come.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:35 pm

Unfortunately such is the way of forums. Its hard to talk about something new every day as things just don't change that quickly.
On another photography forum I joined recently (as an extremely new to photography newbie) I expected the old, set in their way professionals to give a bit of attitude. I was pleasantly suprized to find none. I read through a few other threads here and noticed other newer member getting decent responses so I thought I would sign up. I have never met a dub guy that I didnt like (except my stoner neighbor, but he was just plain weird) and didnt talk very openly about his bug or bus or whatever. When met with my first response from another member, imagine how you would feel.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:41 pm

Viande wrote:

Do you not think advising someone as to which parts are garbage is not support? Gary's post was not heckling you he was advising you that EMPI is not the company it was 30 years ago.

Very well stated Viande. If it had been said even remotely similar to that, I would have never cared or thought twice about it. How would you feel if I told you that everything GM was shit? You may like GM and think the opposite and probably get upset about it right? Now if I stated that I felt GM was of low quality and provided (insert factual evidence here) supporting my statement, sure you may not agree with it, but its not going to piss you off is it? Its a thing called Tact that was not used. Had I read every single post in every single category on this site I would probably know his stance and what to expect, but had I done that I wouldnt have needed to sign up because I would probably have known everything I needed to know, and would probably be too old to do it anymore!

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:43 pm

I'll try to answer the questions from my experiance.

Third slot from the bottom is where I ended up with my adjustable struts, but your tire choices are really limited. 185 60 15's fit pretty well with only a bit of fender rubbing when the car was loaded going around a corner. You might look into rolling the fender edge to clear the tire. Best thing is to have your wheel and tire combination in hand before you commit to a ride height, but they are adjustable. You'll need a Mcpheareson spring compresser to do it, but IIRC the last time I did it, I didn't have to remove the strut assembly.

Two notches might be too low, but it all depends on tire height. You won't see drastic camber changes with the IRS suspension. One notch with low profile tires might be a really good match for the mild lowering you plan for the front. No need for extended arms.

I have toyed with the idea of come-alongs from the rafters, but I realized that the release for most come-along straps don't allow you to release incremenally, they just "let loose", so raising the car would work okay, but lowering the car would be a disaster. Four sturdy sawhorses and a couple of 2X6's work well. It's possible for one man to lift the body off the pan with a floor jack and some creativity, but that's a lot of clumsy, awkward weight. You really would be better off to find a couple of friends to help.

Personally, I wouldn't be concerned about how the balance tube looked, as it runs behind the shroud anyway. Rubber hose will do just fine and won't be stressed like a solid tube would, with the expansion and contraction of the heat cycles.

The master cylinder will most likely do fine with the disc brakes, I've never had an issue, but I've heard the some have residual check valves that had to be removed. I doubt you'll need a proportioning valve, unless you're doing some serious high speed, foot stomping driving.

Unless you just enjoy welding and banging sheetmetal (which I personally do ), you should look at creative car craft. They have fiberglass fenders already modified for the early style headlights. They also come without turn signal holes so installing ANY year turn-signal lights is as easy as drilling the holes.

I loved Kadrons on my 1600 sp back in the day. Simple to tune and easy to get parts for.

There's a lot of people here that have a real problem with anyone who wants to build a mild-custom like you have planned, but don't let them sway you. It's your car and you don't need their permission to do anything to it. Even if they want to call it a "hack", you'll still have a shit-eating grin everytime you drive it. :D