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Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:36 pm

Whats the avg price to have a 1600 DP made into a 1641 CC with parts and labor I know the labor may differ but just comparing buying a rebuilt turn key or keeping the one I have and upgrading it.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:40 pm

The 1641 is just pistons and cylinders, the cylinders slip into the stock block. It is essentially a typical engine overhaul's worth of work. It uses the stock cylinder heads too. I think you can get a set of 1641 P&C's for under $200. Check the vendors.

EDIT: If you do it yourself, it will be the cost of the pistons and cylinders, plus about $25 for an engine gasket kit. Plus however much beer you end up drinking while you're doing it, and if your friends are over drinking beer too your cost will be HUGE! You'll spend more on beer than for parts.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:42 pm

At the risk of irritating a lot of pro-1641 people, I'm going to ask "Why bother?" For every person who claims to have never had an issue with a 1641 you'll find plenty who will overwhelm you with stories over how they've experience one overheating and dying. The 1641 cylinders are thin, which is their inherent weakness.

If you want some extra Oooommph, just drop some extra coin and build a 1776.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:06 pm

1833s the way to go

Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:31 pm

well same goes for the 1835cc. cylinder walls are thin. might as well just buy a 1915 haha

Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:43 pm

x2 Stay away from the thin wall barrels, especially if you check the compression and case bolts and head bolt of your existing engine for proper torque and they are ok. The thin wall barrels also "cut" into the heads to some degree and can result in compression leaks.

If you want a performance increase about the same amount of money will buy dual or two-barrel carbs.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:00 pm

stuvw2mny wrote: If you want a performance increase about the same amount of money will buy dual or two-barrel carbs.

As I read through this thread, that's exactly what I was thinking. If you're into getting some good bolt on performance, start with a dual carb set up and then maybe a new exhaust system.

Bumping up to a 1641 is only a 3.5% increase in displacement. For that, if you expect about a 3.5% increase in performance, you're talking about gaining a little less than 2 hp.

Now, if you keep the 1600 and get a set of dual webers with an exhaust that's less restricting than stock, you could easily see a gain in 5-10hp. You'd feel that in the seat of your pants.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:01 pm

I can go with a 1776 for about 200.00 more I'm not doing the work myself I'm more or less a bolt on guy. I'm looking at Mofoco's rebuilt motor for about 1700 (turn key ) then selling the one I have to offset some of the price. The reason I'm asking is not sure which way to go want what most want little HP and reliability . I figured by the time I have a local rebuild my motor then buy some engine dress ups I'll be more into it, then the Turn Key Mofoco
Any more ideas ?
thanks

Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:02 pm

WTF, stock is 85.5, 1641 is 87mm. Difference is 1.5mm or .75 mm on each wall.. These will not ,I repeat WILL NOT fry if your cooling system works. I have never had a problem with 87 mm. Guess it depends how you set up your engine & how you flog it toolin down the road......JP

Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:29 pm

Go with the 1776 and use a counterbalanced crankshaft. Not much more money than a 1600, but a bit peppier. Not much advantage to be had with a 1641 IMO.

1835 will work ok on something that won't see a lot of heat (like a beetle, but not a bus).

Make sure they install case savers (bigger studs to keep the cylinders from pulling out). Full flowing the case would be nice also.

It will wok OK with a rejetted 34PICT3 carb, but a pair of small 1 barrel carbs (weber ICTs or baby dells or 35mm solexes) will give it better performance for reasonable money.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:21 pm

Are you buying a long block or turnkey? Do you have a stock exhaust? The carburation is going to be restrictive with a 1776 and better flowing exhaust. It will work but you will have to rejet it. These motors get more gain from being more efficient (carburation and exhaust).

More power is addicting once you get a little you will wish you had spent a little more money for more.

Why are you looking to rebuild your engine in the first place? Just for more power or have you done a compression check on it?

Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:25 pm

OK here goes :oops:
What is done to make a stock 1600 into a 1776?
I have always thought that I would forever stay stock. But I see the 1776 referred to more and more.
Not meant to be a hijack. Someone please just drop a short simple answer.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:47 pm

Different Drummer wrote: OK here goes :oops:
What is done to make a stock 1600 into a 1776?
I have always thought that I would forever stay stock. But I see the 1776 referred to more and more.
Not meant to be a hijack. Someone please just drop a short simple answer.

Run 90.5mm P & L's. Heads and case will have to be machined to accept them.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:06 pm

the engine I have now needs a new carb and I'm not sure of its back round mechanically I've owned for a year. I bought a exhaust and was planning on get a set of dual baby webers. The compression was check and its from 90 to 105. I was thinking instead of getting nickled and dimed in the near future replacing old parts maybe the turn key would pay for it self over the long run. If I could do the internal engine work myself I would. Next year i plan on giving this car to my daughter to drive to school and want to trust the car and give it enough power to get out in traffic.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:26 pm

What is your budget? If you are looking for a daily driver for your daughter than budget is very important. Maintenance costs money or time. Remember when giving a car to your child that someone is going to have to do the regular maintenance to keep the car reliable. Is your daughter staying home for school? Young girls tend to need less umph than young boys but would like to have the car drive smoothly through the powerband. Under these conditions a rebuilt 1600with better flow ie. carburation and exhaust with a good distributor to match. Restore to original and it stays very enjoyable.

A couple of suggestions are to get all the seals and cooling tin right, upgrade to an alternator, and make sure the electrical connections (grounds especially) are good.

How many miles on the engine? A rebuilt long block 1600 could be had for under $1k. The rest is about another grand.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:33 pm

Your original post was about 1641 engine size. Later you talk about the 1776. The 1776 will cost a little more money to build.

I am a very strong fan of a 1776. It's a terrific engine, durable, not too expensive to build, and has good torque. I have one and all my engines from now on will be 1776s. You do not need a counterbalanced crank unless you are going to be turning 5000 rpm or greater. Spend that money on a mild aftermarket cam (such as a w100). Mild to help the engine breathe and to pass emissions. Wilder cam sometimes have trouble passing emissions, and aren't needed for "normal" rpms. Wilder cams can "move" your rpm range up, and then you might need the counterbalanced crank, and so on and so on. (read more $$$)

Baby weber (34ict) dual carbs (they fit in a bug better than larger carbs) are good, but are slightly small for this size engine. Kadrons (35mm) are better for this size engine - use what you can get the best price on. Lots of people like the 40mm Webers, but they are pricier. Your choice, but dual carbs make this engine "work". You said you needed new carb, anyway. Fancy, pricey heads are nice but good stock heads, with a little smoothing of the ports are satisfactory for a strong street engine. You do have to have the case and heads machined to accept the 90.5 barrels, that's all. No expensive crankshafts, rods, case relieving, etc. needed. An extractor exhaust is needed. Hopefully you will make sure to do this on a dual oil relief valve (full flow) case and offset oil cooler.

Such a 1776 is more fun to drive on the street, and should easily outlast even a 1600, unless you push and hot-rod it. If that is your objective go for a bigger engine, and be prepared for more $ to build and shorter engine life. The 1776 is very equivalent to the old Porsche Super engine and should give you 85 to 90 HP (65-75% more than stock). To my mind it's a good dollar - performance tradeoff.

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:17 pm

I can get 90.5/92mm bore machine work done here for about $500 (machine work only - you supply the parts), to include case and head machining, and balancing. That's doing all the assembly and blueprinting myself, including case clearancing for a stroker crank. I'd expect your locale to be somewhere close to that.

Individual parts and prices depends wholly on what you buy, of course. Figure $600+ additional over the price of a stock long block for a stroker combination, or $300+ for big-bore only, at the very least.

Stockers can be done pretty inexpensively. At most, you'd need a line-bore and endplay cut on the case, providing it's not beyond repair. Set of cast P&Cs and brand new heads runs about $600 overall, or therabouts. Total for a stocker? Probably $1000 or less.

I'm not gonna go into how much my 1799 stroker (machine-in 88x74) cost to build... I took more 'liberties' than I probably should have!

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:54 pm

Gary wrote: At the risk of irritating a lot of pro-1641 people, I'm going to ask "Why bother?" For every person who claims to have never had an issue with a 1641 you'll find plenty who will overwhelm you with stories over how they've experience one overheating and dying. The 1641 cylinders are thin, which is their inherent weakness.

If you want some extra Oooommph, just drop some extra coin and build a 1776.

Exactly...The only "performance" you'd squeeze out of it is it'll have a little more torque, stay with the stock 1600 or go up to 1776.

Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:07 pm

I stuck with the 1600 P&C because after looking at both sets, the 1600 obviously had more sidewall beef. Air cooled engines need that material to be able to absorb the radiant heat from the combustion chamber and conduct it away to the fins where it radiates into the air being forced over the fins. To me it wasnt worth the extra $20.

Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:23 pm

wheelsmc4 wrote:
Any more ideas ?

yes, take everything you read on forums as what they are. Some are personal experience, some are parrots, and some are theory. But take them all as food for thought, then call an engine builder if you plan to buy prebuilt. I could rattle off a whole page based on 20 years of real world experiences and mistakes that I made by listening to others that *seemed* knowledgeable at the time, but I won't. The best advice is to do as I said and use opinions here as a basis for research, then call a competant engine builder and be honest with them. Honest about what you want and what you can spend. The good ones will be honest about what they can do for you, and not just try to sell you something.