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Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:13 pm

Quote: I'm very happy for you, but it only takes one time for it to die, then you're stranded

And, if you run over something big, you'll crack the case and dump your oil, or a seal could fail, an axle snaps, a wheel falls off. Just tow a spare car with you......... :roll:

Have been runnning Pertronics or Compufire on the buggy for 4 years (usually put 3000 miles a year on it.) Put a Pertronix in neighbors car (with one of my spare distributors) 2 years ago. Have a beater 009 that I have thrown in everything for testing with a Pertronix. Have never had a failure. Easy to install, just make sure that the rotor is not too high. Discovered that on the buggy recently when doing dyno runs and tuning. Not rocket science. Just make sure that you have a slight gap between the bottom of the rotor and the module (this way you know it is seated fully). You can use a belt sander or a file or whatever to cut it down if you need to. The tech article is good to make sure your coil is compatible - I ran a stock VW coil on the 65 with the 009 for about a year. Running a blue coil on the buggy.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:20 pm

andk5591 wrote: Quote: I'm very happy for you, but it only takes one time for it to die, then you're stranded

And, if you run over something big, you'll crack the case and dump your oil, or a seal could fail, an axle snaps, a wheel falls off. Just tow a spare car with you......... :roll:

Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges. :roll: :roll: :roll:

andk5591 wrote: Have been runnning Pertronics or Compufire on the buggy for 4 years (usually put 3000 miles a year on it.)

Congratulations. 3000 miles?? I've put that on my Bus in one week. Some of us actually drive our ACVW's daily and I've never had a set of points fail me. Ever. I personally am the proud owner of 2 dead Pertronix units, so they can and do fail. Saying you've had a part on your car for 4 years is great, but when you're putting 3K miles a year on that vehicle, it's much less impressive. Like I said, I had a Pertronix on my '74 Rivi for the 4 years I owned it with no problems, but I've also had them shit the bed on me and disable the car. It's a simple piece of advice to carry a set of points and a condenser with you, certainly nothing to get your feelings hurt over or argue about. I've had both good and bad experiences with Pertronix, and I've read plenty of posts on the forums with a no start problem that was solved by removing the Pertronix and installing a set of points.

Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:25 pm

Invest in a timing light and a tach/dwell/volt/ohm meter and you won't need anyone but you.

Well maybe a Bentley manual, but it will quickly pay for itself.

Plus you can test your coil with it to see if will do what it is supposed to.

Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:54 am

Quote: Congratulations. 3000 miles?? I've put that on my Bus in one week. Some of us actually drive our ACVW's daily

I am VERY glad you drive - cars sitting bugs me (pun intended) as well. I love it when people are washing their car because its dirty from driving rather than blowing off the dust and cobwebs. And I am a big boy - my feelings aren't hurt LOL.

But - I put almost around 8K miles on my 65 last summer (got it on the road late May, parked it In November, but it sat at a body shop for 5 weeks in the summer for roof repair). I had my beater 009(with Pertronix) in it until I cobbled together a semi-proper distributor for it early this year. Have put another 6 or 7K on it this year (but points in it now).

I can't drive my buggy as much as I like. I live in PA - rains a bit and we have this stuff called snow and salt, which is why the buggy doesnt get driven as much. But with an average of 3K miles over 4 years - that's 12K miles. Also, I have trouble driving 2 cars at the same time..... :shock:

I have no issue with points - running those in the 65 until I get my final distributor and then, if Compufire or Pertronix makes a module that fits, I'll put one in that as well.

Theres not a lot to go wrong with the electronic modules unless you fry them because you left the ignition on in the wrong place, got the wires shorted or hooked it up wrong. I guess they can just fail as well - anything can.

Honestly, I just sometimes have issues why some of us can't embrace any new technology (electronics points triggers go back, what 20 or more years?) They are sold and used in thousands of points type distributors in everything from VWs to muscle cars to antiques. But to each their own. Some like to dick with points, that's fine - I can set mine just fine, I even have one of them thar new fangled dwell meters. LOL But I have other stuff that needs regular maintenance on the cars, so that is one less thing to mess with. With 2 drivers and a serious project, I have enough other stuff to keep me busy.

And Vdub, its not apples and oranges. Stuff can break that will leave you sit. Only time I was left sitting was when a 1 month old fuel pump failed. Who carries one of those in your spares?

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:14 am

andk5591 wrote: I live in PA - rains a bit and we have this stuff called snow and salt,

You must be kidding. Evidently you didn't bother to look at my location, we get anywhere from 140-200 inches of snow a year here in Syracuse, and the roads are salted daily throughout the winter. :roll:

I guess I'll say it again....I have NOTHING against Pertronix or any other points replacement module. It was a simple piece of advice to the OP to carry a set of points and condenser with him because they CAN and DO shit the bed from time to time.

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:17 am

A couple of issues no one has mentioned yet for a first-time pertronix install...many people adore their pertronix and get them to work great, so I don't mean to sound like a downer or like a total moron. But from my own experiences with 2 different pertronix systems:

1) The magnetic ring that comes with the system does not want to slip right over the distributor shaft. It is way tight. I had to carve a little bit out of the inside of the magnet ring when I was doing it (both times, both were tight). After trimming a little excess out, you're supposed to seat it to the proper height with a big socket (like a sparkplug socket), and tap it gently home. You can (and people here have) crack the magnet ring doing this. Then you have to get a new one...

2) Over on the air cooled forums (and in my case) they noticed that some pertronix units had magnets installed at inexact intervals. I don't recall the consensus on this, so here's the link. http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?t=2818&highlight=pertronix Check with a timing light on each spark plug wire and the center too for scatter.... mine was 3 or 4 degrees out on one of the cylinders. Obviously not too good for the engine!

3) The wires of the pertronix are thick, there are 2 inside the distributor, and the grommet is tight on the inside. Meaning it may be tricky to install it so that the wires don't hang up the retard of the distributor. In other words, set it up, time it, then rev it up and watch the timing mark. In my case, for some stupid reason, I wasn't able to get it to smoothly return to idle timing; it would hang up around 20 degrees! I trimmed the grommet, funked with the wires, no dice.

So, due to points 1, 2, and 3, I still use points. One day, I shall try again, but not today....

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:20 am

I've tested a number of Pertronix units and found the magnets being as much as +/-2 degrees off which means is #1 is -2 degrees and #3 is +2 degrees you can have #3 a net of 4 degrees too advanced which will be a major problem.

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:53 am

Writes in VW log book, "no such thing as a Basic Pertronix Question", sighs, closes log book and wanders off to drink another cup of coffee.... :?

Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:40 am

If you bother to learn how to properly install points you certainly don't have to "dick" with them very often. I typically clean mine at about 20K miles and replace them at about 40K. I don't think that I have ever found the adjustment (or timing) to get off if the cam and wear block are properly lubed, and the pivot oiled. Keeping good spark plugs screwed into the engine is a big part of the formula. Good plugs fire at lower voltage and lower voltage across the plugs means less arcing across the points.

Running a points replacement module or any other form of electronic ignition doesn't mean that you do not have to maintain your distributor. The felt under the rotor still needs to be lubed at the original interval and every 80K so so it is best to do a disassemble and cleaning of the bearings between the plates.

Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:49 am

Just for the record:

1. I am fairly mechanically ignorant at this point, hence I have a lot of very obvious air cooled 101 questions.
2. Not just interested in 'set it and forget it'.
3. Really want to know how my bus works (including points), but at a disadvantage since geographically appear to be on my own and therefore have no point of reference when attempting a repair/upgrade.

That's my story. :wink:

Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:19 am

The Pertronix or Points are a personal preference.

Pertronix
Pros:
When they work they work.
No more adjusting points
No more greasing the cam
Some say their engines are easier to start
Some say they get better MPG
Some say they get better performance

Cons:
When they fail, you're walking
Expensive
Some need the rotors to be trimmed to fit under the cap
Some have the magnets not exactly 90 degrees apart and your timing can be off
Some are affected by heat
Some are affected by low voltage

Points
Pros:
Cheap ($5-$7 a set)
When they have a problem you can usually fix it enough to get home
Proven and reliable

Cons:
They wear and need to be adjusted every 12,000-15,000 miles That's every few years for most of us.
They need to have the cam greased. Every other oil change is fine and takes 20 seconds
They're not sexy and you can't say you have an "electronic ignition".

Either will work, just carry a set of points or spare distributor if you have a Pertronix.

Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:55 am

Quote: Stuff can break that will leave you sit. Only time I was left sitting was when a 1 month old fuel pump failed. Who carries one of those in your spares?

I do. 8)

Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:15 pm

As far as learning - don't be afraid to try stuff - the VWs are hard to hurt. Make sure that that you have a decent manual or 2. This site is a great resource, but do some more looking around your area - there's usually a "VW underground" almost everywhere - ask around at repair shops to see if they know of anybody that works on old VWs. Usually a couple names will keep popping up.

Now here's the thing - if you find an actual shop that does work on them, you are probably going to find one of 2 things.

Someone that had worked on them a lot years ago and got sick of losing their butts and is primarily working on something else to pay the bills. They can be real nice and helpful or evasive and grumpy.

Or someone who is just doing it for fun and is probably retired or has a "hobby shop" on the side.

In either case, be nice, be polite and don't waste too much of their time unless they are inviting you to just hang out. If they are fixing anything for you - always expect to pay the going mechanic rate. You may or may not get a deal, but don't expect it just because you both love VWs. Good luck!

Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:45 pm

Finally! Amongst all the banter, I hope you don't miss this:

Quote: 1) The magnetic ring that comes with the system does not want to slip right over the distributor shaft. It is way tight. I had to carve a little bit out of the inside of the magnet ring...

X2!

Mine went down about halfway - looked good, but the cap wouldn't go on, because the rotor was too high, because the mag ring was too high. Look inside that mag ring, use your eyes and brain. The recessed areas are not perfectly smooth, so they catch on the cams on the dist. shaft. I used a small spoon file to smooth them out by hand, and then gently tap it on with a plastic mallet. At least it's a nice tight fit.

Yes, you must adjust timing. I think you'll notice a nice performance upgrade, Idid, but that might just be because I adjusted the timing, hard to tell. Either way, my bus is better off for it!

Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:01 pm

I just installed a similar system (hot-spark) not pertronix with a SVDA dizzy. I was timing the bus and got everything about right for the timing and on my tach/dwell unit I switched over to dwell from RPM to just see how this new "electronic ignition" dwell would be.
Well the dwell was at 24 degrees and I believe according to the books and such the dwell is supposed to be around 48-50 degrees.
Has anybody ever noticed anything like this before?
sorry to hijack. :wink:

Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:13 pm

They work great until you get the wires crossed. Then it's back to the parts store for a replacement at $75 or so. Just make sure that the red wire goes to the + side of the coil and the black goes to the - side.

Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:16 pm

spicolibus wrote: I just installed a similar system (hot-spark) not pertronix with a SVDA dizzy. I was timing the bus and got everything about right for the timing and on my tach/dwell unit I switched over to dwell from RPM to just see how this new "electronic ignition" dwell would be.
Well the dwell was at 24 degrees and I believe according to the books and such the dwell is supposed to be around 48-50 degrees.
Has anybody ever noticed anything like this before?
sorry to hijack. :wink:

Dwell means nothing in a system with no points/condensor although you should get some sort of reading.

Don't worry about it. You are fine.

Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:21 pm

Randy
Cool, that is what I thought. Seems to run fine except for my carb problem.
Hot-Spark told me it should be at about 24 degrees at 900 or so RPM. and at about 58 at 3,000 RPM.

Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:01 pm

I replaced my points with a Petronix in my '71 bus.

I ordered a new SVDA with the Petronix already installed to avoid the installation hassle. I removed the 009 out of the bus by unbolting the distributor clamp from the case, so the clamp is still on the distributor. This way if I ever have a problem I can swap out the entire distributor and the timing and dwell will already be set.

As luck would have it, the new Petronix failed in less than 100 miles. Unfortunately I had left my tool box with my spare dizzy in the garage. A local VW shop was kind enough to warranty the replacement of the Petronix for me even though I had bought mine online. I have a few thousand miles on the replacement Petronix and all is well.

The only downside to having the Petronix is you cannot leave the ignition switch on or you can fry the unit.

Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:35 pm

Quote: The only downside to having the Petronix is you cannot leave the ignition switch on or you can fry the unit.

Very interesting; didn't know that. So, listening to some tunes on the radio with the bus off is not a wise move? :shock: