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Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:04 am

Rear sway bar on a 67 do i need it or can i cut it out? does it stop wheel tuck or do i need to worry about that?

Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:52 pm

If your just going to drive on the street keep it. Off road it will limit your travel.

Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:57 pm

You should keep it though. A lot of guys cut it and stuff it inside the hollow tie rod tubes to strengthen them.

Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:36 pm

The rear sway bar your referring to is actually called a Z bar. i have one on my 67' and im kind of confused on what it does. i noticed that if you push one side up the other side goes down. Im not really sure how that is a sway bar, but im told its a last attempt to prevent the car from a roll over. Dont cut it up. Its worth some money since it only came on a few years of our cars. Im kind of curious as to weather i should remove it or not on my baja.

Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:55 pm

well its a sway bar of sorts, but im leaning more towards a wheel tuck preventer. i talked to an old school baja guy he said it dosnt matter either way so im thinking of leaving it on

Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:22 pm

maybe i should clearify im planning to beat on this car hard, but a little loss in travel vs safety i will err in the safe side. i might take it off to see what it does

Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:35 pm

im not so sure this bar is a safety device though. consider this. Your flying down a road(lets say paved so you know you have good traction). you take a hard left and the body leans to the right. now your passenger side tire is crammed up into the wheel well and the driver side is fully extended. The way this bar works is if you push one side up, the other side goes down. Therefor your passenger side tire being high up in the wheel well pushes the drive side tire down, further inducing body roll. Another thing that puzzles me about this bar is that it has play on the down rods, meaning that it wont go into effect right away. Can any one help me and the Nachodaddy figure this one out?

Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:56 pm

seriously this is starting to bug me (pun not intended). its there for a purpose but why? does the older swing cars have this? maybe i can extend it the amount i lift the rear and it wont limit travel but still work?
it makes no sense for it to induce body roll so it must reduce it therefor it has some benifit. WTF..........

Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:09 pm

Be careful here.... So far there is the "Z" bar which works completely different from the "anti sway" bar (anti body roll) which normally connects to torsion tube and is in the shape of a "U" out to rear axle (swing or IRS - does not matter) .... And somebody already confused the issue by stating to cut the bar and use it for a stiffener in from tie rod (yes but its a FRONT stock anti-sway bar not the rear)....

We use the anti sway bar to keep our autocross buggies pretty flat to the track for handling.... The anti sway bar tends to bring opposite side (inside to corner) UP along with side being depressed (low side on corner).... It really is more of a anti-roll bar and tends to keep body flatter......

A "Z" bar works just opposite, it pushes down opposing side axle/wheel to the low side to maintain "inside" (on corner) wheel contact... And induces more body roll because of the push (down) action on high side...

And just to confide things there is the "camber compensator" which tends to work like a "Z" bar (I think)...

It really depends what you want to do with way car handles...

Dale

Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:13 pm

It appears the Z-bar is for added tension with a heavy load, to compensate for lighter torsion bars. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=115512&highlight=zbar If you raise the back of the car you may be limited in height because of the bar no being able to reach.

Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:16 pm

Don't think so.... it is NOT a SPRING and has noting to do with spring rate.... ..... Its a "crank" or "lever" so to speak... Push up on one side, it pushes down on other side..... IF load is equal on both side it just pivots in bushing (not effected by weight)...

Dale

Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:19 pm

So then a Z bar would useful if you where doing some slow wheeling, maybe rock crawling. But its no good for high speed. Is all that correct?

Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:21 pm

Its on standard beetle and they go high speed......

Again, it's what you are trying to accomplish....

Dale

Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:21 pm

Dale M. wrote: Don't think so.... it is NOT a SPRING and has noting to do with spring rate.... ..... Its a "crank" or "lever" so to speak... Push up on one side, it pushes down on other side..... IF load is equal on both side it just pivots in bushing (not effected by weight)...

Dale

According to the post above that is what I got from it.
bill may wrote: a zbar is not a camber compensater nor is it a sway bar. it was used due to downsizing of rear torsion bars in 1967 model year and 68 in usa but thru end of production in 2003. it only compensates to carry load and is not for cornering.

PJMS wrote: The Z-bar works entirely differently. First of all, the Z-bar is not actually the primary element here. The 'system' is based around the fact that these cars also have softer rear torsion bars. Softer rear suspension, increases rear roll, placing more of the roll forces on the front axle and in turn reduces over-steer (or increases under-steer). This has the inherent effect of avoiding the conditions for wheel tuck. What the Z-bar does is put back the suspension lost through using the softer main torsion bars, only when needed. So it is completely ineffective when simply cornering but under heavy loads, it will increase the spring rate progressively (the connecting bar running from left to right is a long thin torsion bar).

KTPhil wrote: "The Z-bar only comes into play on turns, so it shouldn't change ride quality, or height."

My understanding of the z-bar is that it is simply an overload spring. To lessen oversteer, VW made several changes is '67. They raised the front ride height and softened the rear springs, both intended to make the front end take more cornering, and wash out sooner.

But softening the rear springs made it susceptible to bottoming out, so they added a z-bar, which only works when both wheels are compressed (from load), and not at all when cornering.

Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:39 pm

well im removing it cause my double tube bumper mounts to the shocks. im hoping to mount it to the firewall instead if the tubing will cooperate.

but if what you say is true and i pushes the inner wheel down when the outside wheel compresses up then if both compress then it would increase spring rate cause it cant push one wheel so it pushes both. if that makes sense

Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:32 am

It may happen to some extent (act as torsional stiffener) but I don't think that was real intent of why it was put on there...

Dale

Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:12 pm

pull the thing off and sell it to someone with a street car! sway bars limit travel! you have a baja bug not a street car, meening you want travel!

Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:22 pm

The Z Bar was designed to keep the inside and outside wheels from tucking under (bow legged if you will) and increasing the potential of the car to roll in a corner.

It was not intended to be used to carry more weight or to prevent body roll. It had a snubber on the later models to help smooth the bottoming out.

A lot of off roaders say take everything off to allow max travel, then in the next breath they say the swing sucks because it gets tippsy in the curves off road. They are monkey see, monkey do.

Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:26 pm

yeah it limits max travel in stock form however if i can undersatnd better what it does then i can hopefully modify it to not limit travel. im leaving it on for now to see if it handles better with or without it. i guess thats my main question

Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:16 pm

It only limits travel when both wheels go towards full drop/extension.

Jack up your car with the Z Bar attatched, then remove the Z Bar and see how much more it drops without it. Let us know.