TheSamba.com :: View topic - Getting new 127 (1800cc) engine ready to go

Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:16 am

I have been doing a little prep work to get a new factory 1800 ready to go into a '78 Riviera pop top I have. So far I have only gotten the pilot bearing, flywheel, and clutch installed. Have a long list of things I want to do to the engine and van before it is ready to go. I peened the two galley plugs on the right side of the engine (as you look at it with the flywheel off) and bored the flywheel to get clearance to install a sealed pilot bearing. Have trouble understanding why VW didn't do either of these things on all their engines. :cry: I am torn on replacing the unused but quite old seals and gaskets on the engine. Everything seems soft and pliable, but I know they must be thirty plus years old at this point.

Not the best craftsmanship, hard to hit them all the same. :cry:

Longer seal pilot bearing sticks out from the end of the flywheel

Flywheel counterbored to give room for sealed pilot bearing. Counter bore was about 3/16" deep but could have been a little shallower. I had mine bored, but others could accomplish the same by using a 27/32 drill bit. Just don't drill all the way through or you will have difficulty getting your flywheel resurfaced in the future.

Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:24 pm

Quote: new factory 1800

New? As in, new?

I didn't know such a thing existed.

Lucky dog.

Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:09 pm

Patrick199 wrote: Quote: new factory 1800

New? As in, new?

I didn't know such a thing existed.

Lucky dog.

Yes, new as in new....there was a stockpile of brand new 1800 factory engines found somehwere and a few places were selling them for a while. Wildthings was lucky enough to be able to buy one of the engines..I know I saw them advertised in Volksworld Camper&Bus magazine for a while, but they were gone from this month's issue.

Good deal Wildthings, glad to see you got the engine and you're getting it ready to be put into service....lookin forward to more pics!!

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:41 pm

were those the industrial engines? Good catch. Consider having the valve seats staked also.

Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:54 pm

SGKent wrote: were those the industrial engines? Good catch. Consider having the valve seats staked also.

I don't want to pull the engine down at all. I know maybe I should. I definitely would prefer drilled and tapped galley plugs over peened ones, an improved oil pump, and better head work, but I am betting I can run this engine for decades without going very deep into it. My present 1800 has never had head work in the 20+ years I have been running it and it had run a lot of years in a 412 before I got my hands on it, supposedly without head work then either. I am betting that by maintaining a good tune up this engine will not require head work for a similar length of time.

Not sure what pistons are actually in a 127 industrial engine. Once I remove the tin I am going to set one of the cylinders at TDC and then use a syringe to fill the compression volume with oil. This should give me the info I need to figure out the compression ratio.

Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:15 am

Quote: I don't want to pull the engine down at all.

understand.

Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:35 am

peening the galley plugs (staking) won't do much of anything to avoid losing a plug..

Upon start up the pressure in the galleys of the engine can easily overcome the galley plugs and dislodge them

Do you have a pic of the rear seal flange with the seal removed from a direct angle?? I think I see something missing thats critical but I can't tell due to the angle of the pic.

Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:30 pm

Jake, If you are looking for the oil drain hole it is there. Don't have a more direct shot than this. What else might you be looking for?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:43 pm

Here is a picture of the 127 Industrial engine as it was when I purchased it, note the governor on the lower left of the photo. Included with the purchase was lots of good stuff like new heater flapper valves, new oil bath air cleaner, and a new starter. It has a single barrel carb, a Solex I believe. I am tempted to try and run it with the single barrel just to see what it would do and then switch it over either to fuel injection or modify the single barrel manifold to take a progressive.

Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:44 pm

I thought that I would record any specs I picked up off the engine as I went, so we could see how the factory put these thing together all those years ago.

Crankshaft endplay: .005 inches

Points: .018"

Plugs: Beru 145-14-3, gaps .022-.024" There appears to be motor oil on spark plug threads.

Distributor # VW 021-905-205AD, its a SVDA that is supposed to be set at 5° BTDC if I figured the German correctly, will check timing at full advance once the engine is installed.

Shallow dished pistons, will check compression volume with a syringe the best I can.

Crank seal: Originally installed without any sealant, was easy to remove and reuse when checking endplay. I did use #2 Permatex when reinstalling, but that would not have been necessary if the seal had not already been installed once before.

Most rubber parts on the engine seem to be very supple. However the foam strip used on some of the tin is rotten and the spark plug wires are very stiff.

The squish appears to be about .040" the best I can determine it with the tools available, can't find anything that indicates to me the valve sizes. I do have an ink stamped head part numbers I should record. Don't know if there are head gaskets installed or not, and don't know how I could determine this with the heads installed.

Lots and lots of Philips head sheet metal screws holding the tin together. Some of the washers and a few of the screws appear to be stainless, in particular the ones holding the tin around the governor, though some of the others appear to be stainless as well.

Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:43 pm

Governer huh? any plans on making cruise control?
Those end castings on the manifold and infact the whole manifold are very cool, odd heat exchangers for the preheater pipe I assume?
Which way are the valve covers and valve cover bales installed?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:48 pm

Ok, you caught my interest...from where do the intake manifold pre-heat tubes come? are there 2 on the left? could you post some more pics of them?

Nice score!

Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:55 pm

Wow what a great toy that engine is - you must be having a blast :D

how exactly does that governor work?

you should totally run it "stock" just for the experience and to tell us all how it runs! :D

Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:26 pm

busdaddy wrote: Which way are the valve covers and valve cover bales installed?

All the valve covers are installed with the logo upside down. That's four covers as I have two complete engines. The bales are installed so that the centers bends up. I have taken a picture of the covers and bales but left the camera outside so will post tomorrow.

73kombi wrote: Ok, you caught my interest...from where do the intake manifold pre-heat tubes come? are there 2 on the left? could you post some more pics of them?

The manifold heat takes off the exhaust pipes right where they enter the muffler, just behind where the muffler bolts to the heat exchangers. I would have to look again to see exactly how it dumps. This is how I first found out about the engines, I had seen pictures of the manifolds posted on another forum and asked how I could come by a set. Had to buy the whole shebang to get the manifolds. :wink: The things some of us will do so that we can avoid both FI and duals.

The governor works by just plain closing the throttle as the RPM's pick up, I assume the governor is set at 3000 as that is where the engine is rated. It appears the governor is the only thing hooked to the throttle, there is no other linkage. You can see the link between the governor and the carb in the picture, but it is presently not hooked to the governor and just flops around and runs off at a weird angle.

Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:31 pm

Wildthings wrote: The bales are installed so that the centers bends up. :wink: :P

Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:14 am

The carb is a 32PCI, I did not get one of the engines, but acquired three of the intake manifolds and carbs. Here is a link to the tread on the STF which has a copy of the manual in one of the posts.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=122273

Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:28 am

busman78 wrote: http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=122273

Hey, excellent link...a great read, and pics of the pre-heat tubes coming off the HXs. I suppose if a guy wanted to, it wouldn't be that hard to fab some pre-heat tubes, providing your HX' were in great condition.

There was a lot of talk there that they came with dual carbs as well, but no pics...

Quote: All were 1.8L and came with dual 36-40PDSIT carbs, 7.3 : 1 c.r. and put out 68hp at 4000rpm.

Well obviously NOT all.

Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:53 am

73kombi wrote: busman78 wrote: http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=122273

Hey, excellent link...a great read, and pics of the pre-heat tubes coming off the HXs. I suppose if a guy wanted to, it wouldn't be that hard to fab some pre-heat tubes, providing your HX' were in great condition.

There was a lot of talk there that they came with dual carbs as well, but no pics...

Quote: All were 1.8L and came with dual 36-40PDSIT carbs, 7.3 : 1 c.r. and put out 68hp at 4000rpm.

Well obviously NOT all.

I calculated the horsepower based on the information given on the tag for one of these single carb engines. With the torque being about 3/4 that of a bus engine and the rpm's being limited to 3000 rpm's it came out to about 45 HP, IIRC.

You can do your own preheat system from scratch and it will work. I ran the system pictured below for years. The real ticket here was the double walled section at the base of the carb. It let you put the heat right where you needed it to get heat to the carb. It is in general a very good set up which I ran for better than ten years.

Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:42 pm

Mercury Capri air cleaner?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:01 pm

maybe next year i might install mine in a bus and see how it drives. :idea: