TheSamba.com :: View topic - Early Bay

Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:10 am

Hi All -

I have been searching thru a boat load of threads, but just can't find what I'm looking for. Maybe you can shed some insight.
Let me first begin by letting you know what I have, and have done so far: I have a '69 with a '71 motor, 30amp gen. and VR (both matched), and replaced nearly 90% of the electrical wiring and sensors - pulled the motor out and re-installed it, changing some mechanical and fuel stuff. *Please note: painstakingly - I went thru both the 68/69 and 70/71 electrical prints making sure everything is now back to original design. All modified fixes and changes were removed and restored back.* Most of the wiring from PR's were either held together by electrical tape, wire nuts, or literally twisted together and exposed with nothing covering the copper. It has been sitting in my driveway for 9 months with everything apart - no instrument cluster either. During these last months, I have been starting her up and running her at 5-10 minute intervals (of course, no gen. light connected in the circuit.) I also replaced the oil sender switch (no teflon or goop on the threads) and the back-up light switch.
The battery is very low in CCA from the intermittent running, without charging. It usually has enough juice to turn and crank the motor a few times to get her started, but normally she starts right up. If I miss that opportunity, I normally wait a while for it to statically charge a little and build a little juice - then she starts and runs.
I also replaced my instrument cluster with a '71 (no real difference) and re-lamped it entirely (9 bulbs from BusDepot). This is my first air-cooled VW - so not sure of a few things. What lights on the instrument cluster, if any, should I see lit when the key is on, or the bus is running?

Ok, so now onto the question: When I turn the key on, not cranking or running, no indicator lights are lit (no generator light or oil). When I have her running, the generator light is lit bright and steady. No oil light.
When she's running, she runs until I turn it off with the key. So, this leads me to believe that the generator is working and putting out enough energy to run the engine on its own, and not running on the battery.
Reading thru other threads, it was mentioned that the bulb is essential in charging the battery - but the bulb should not be lit while it's running - only when the key is in the on position.
I have a hard time understanding this logic, because if the bulb is needed in the charging circuit between the generator and VR, then for current to pass thru it, it must be lit (i.e. completing the circuit - 12V on one side and ground on the other). If the bulb was burnt or missing, then no current / voltage can pass thru it and return.
Is the light lit because the battery is so low that its working its butt off to charge it - or might I have a problem somewhere?
And, should I be seeing anything lit (while key is on, or bus running), if all is working fine?

Thanks for any feedback....

Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:29 am

On a 69 (or any year) you should see no lights when it's running, when it's stopped and the key is turned on you should see the gen light and the oil light (more lights on later models, not our concern here).
The working charge light rule only applies to alternator equipped busses, a generator is capable of creating it's own initial charge for the field. Which brings up the first question, have you polarized the generator since it's been sitting?
As for the oil light try grounding the wire that goes to the sender while the key is on, the light should light. If it doesn't light start by checking fuse #4, the insulated area where the bulbs go into the back of the cluster needs to be supplied with power when the key is on, that black wire that goes to there, the signal arrows and the fuel gauge and then connects to fuse #4 on a 69.

Leaving a battery low or discharged will shorten it's life dramatically, invest in a cheap trickle charger or maintainer, it'll be way cheaper than another battery.

Edit: Just because it stays running with a weak battery doesn't mean it's charging, an ignition system will work with even the power from a handfull of flashlight batteries. Test it with a volt meter, you sould see 11-12 volts sitting and around 14 running. Or the ghetto test is remove the battery lead, if it quits it's not charging at all. DON'T DO THIS ON AN ALTERNATOR EQUIPPED VEHICLE!, it's only safe with generators.
Also make sure the ground wire between the generator body and the regulator base is installed, many "experts" leave this out and it'll cause all sorts of problems if the generator or regulator develop grounding issues.

Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:58 am

Evan,

BusDaddy offers some more things to ponder in addition to the PM I sent you this morning. Especially the ground wire for the generator. Best of luck

Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:05 am

I appreciate the help and things to look at.
I'll check it all out on Friday and let you know. I will re-check the wiring and fuses.

I haven't polarized the generator, but will review the procedure and go from there, but firstly - check what kind of output voltage I am getting to the battery while running. The battery itself is holding at 12.3v stand-alone while not running or cranking.

Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:32 pm

Had a quick chance to check the charging voltage out.
When running @1200rpm, charging voltage is 14.2, as I rev the engine the voltage increases. At about 2,000-2,500rpm its at 14.5v.
I read this at the battery terminals while running.

I took your advice and picked up a charger today... so the battery had a few hour charge.

I didn't get a chance to look further into the oil light, or why the generator light is still lit - only while running. I will re-check the electrical in case something is grounded, or miswired. Although I did notice that as rpm's increase, the light just barely pulses a little.

Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:44 pm

Well that's promising, check that the regulator is grounded well and all the terminals are clean and tight.

Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:57 am

I think I might have messed up.

I couldn't find anything to show this in any prints - but is the isolated metal plates surrounding the turn signal bulbs, generator bulb and oil bulb supposed to be gnd or +12v? If it's supposed to be +12v then what fuse supplies the voltage?
I wired this with a ground (as was by a PO), but the more I look, I think the logic on the gen. bulb is incorrect (hence, works backwards) - and there would be no other way to supply +12v to the oil bulb.

Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:16 am

busdaddy wrote: As for the oil light try grounding the wire that goes to the sender while the key is on, the light should light. If it doesn't light start by checking fuse #4, the insulated area where the bulbs go into the back of the cluster needs to be supplied with power when the key is on, that black wire that goes to there, the signal arrows and the fuel gauge and then connects to fuse #4 on a 69.

Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:21 am

Cool -
Ok, I noticed the fuel gauge isn't working and it makes sense - but at the terminals it has a + and -(minus).
If I am taking the voltage from fuse 4 to the fuel gauge also, then is it to the + and the sender wire to the -(minus)?

Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:28 am

Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:00 pm

Woohoo.... Thanks again BusDaddy and Jody

The indicator lights now work as you specified - Key on = oil and gen. lights on, running = both lights out. I did have to use fuse 1 though. Fuses 1 and 2 are the ones with key on supplied voltage...

Now onto the next challenge...