TheSamba.com :: View topic - Engine Pull/Tear Down Pictures and Questions

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:24 am

So I bought my car about two years ago, and I have since realized that the PO was a complete moron. Between him and the precious few times I let the Grease Monkey work on my car pretty much everything on it was setup incorrectly. Just one example: the PO told me that the motor was a 2138 cc which I found out later is a very uncommon size (I didn't know any better because I was a 1st time VW owner).

Anywho, fast forwarding to now: The motor came with 8 plastic spring-loaded push-rod tubes that mercilessly spewed oil everywhere. I wanted to stop the oil leak, which meant replacing the tubes, which lead me to want to pull the heads, which lead me to want to pull the engine, which lead me to this:

I started by pulling the rockers off of the heads and I learned that I've got an "041" head:

and as it turns out, it looks like I've got Auto Craft Rockers, which is funny because when I first got the car and took it to the Grease Monkey, he told me I had Pauter rockers....interesting

I used my eyeball and calipers and found that they are about 1.5:1 ratio. All the push rod ends seemed to be in good shape too:

One thing that caught my eye was that there was rust on two of the valve springs, as if the engine were subjected to rain and moisture:

Is this a big deal? I imagine that it's going to increase the odds of me loosing a spring one of these days. How hard is it to change valve springs? Can I do it with the heads and motor in the car or do I have to do it now that the heads are out of the car?

When I took the heads off, I was surprised by the amount of rust at the head-to-sleeve interface:

I pulled out the calipers again, and it looks like I've got a 40mm intake valve, and a 36 mm exhaust valve on heads that have not been ported or polished. Do these numbers make sense?

It also looked like there was some odd damage around the spark plugs. It's a little hard to see, but hopefully you can make it out in this picture:

It look as if chunks of metal around the spark plugs are just chipping and falling out of the recess that the plugs are in..

Now comes some of the weird stuff...I measured the bore to be 90.5mm, and the stroke to be 82mm leaving me with 2110cc not the 2138 that made no sense! (GREAT how much faith can I have in a PO that didn't even know the size of his engine!) Using the calipers, it looks like the deck height is about 0.06". Assuming that the combustion chamber is 45cc (I still need to measure it) that would give me a compression ratio of 10.6.

I then saw that the piston had a stamp on it reading "90.45" which I assumed was an indication that the bore was indeed 90.5mm...but it also had another stamp that read something like "1206 'E' 1285". Anyone know what that might refer to?

I THEN noticed that two of the pistons (2&4) and little puddles of oil pooling in them, and I couldn't determine whether or not it was just because the engine had been sitting at a slight angle on my workbench overnight...but that doesn't make much sense because the oil level couldn't possibly be up that high! Is this amount of oil normal?

THEN I looked up into cylinders 1 & 2 and saw what looks like crazy rust pits!

At first I thought they may be pitting from some other kind of engine damage, but I then noticed that the rusting was only on the upper half of the chamber wall, and was confined to a clearly marked zone as if the motor had stayed in the same position for a long time.

So, I was planning on looking a few things over while I had the engine out of the car, like replacing the seals and gaskets on all of the accessories (fuel pump, oil filler, etc). What else should I do??? Should I split the case? How hard is it? How hard is it to get the case back together?

Right now I don't have any real *reason* to split the case as the engine is running fine. Although, I don't know what kind of shape any of the internals are in given what I've seen so far. I'd like to know what kind of cam is in the car, but should I just hold off until I have a real need to split the case?

Yar...any advice would be nice. Any observations, suggestions are welcome! Sorry for the uber long post...

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:52 am

IMO at the very minimum I would replace the valve springs, new cylinders or at least a set that is not pitted severly, gasket kit and a set of pushrod tubes.

But for me, being very curious of other parts and not liking the idea of pulling the engine again to tear it apart I would do it right the first time and be done with it. First off;
Spit the case, check out other items like crank, rods, and what cam is installed.
Get the case cleaned up, hot tanked.
get the crank checked out, most likely polished.
get the heads checked out, bead blasted, valve job, check out valve guides and valves. Also check out that crack or what ever it is by that spark plug as per pic posted.
Either locate a set of new cylinders w/new rings or get a new set of pistons and cylinders.
resurface flywheel.
Rebalance rotating assembly.

Splitting the case and reassembling is fairly easy if you have a few special tools like a torque wrench with a range from 5-75 ft/lbs and another torque wrench that could go up to 300 ft/lbs or more. Seeing that the OP knows how to check deck height along with measuring other items, shows that he has the ability to figure things out. This site is an excellent resource for when one gets stumped.

Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:40 am

Like he said^^^^^^^^^^^^ i would also get the combustion chambers cc'd.

Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:41 am

ur engine at some time was hydro-locked, the rust in the cylinders shows that the engine sat some time with water in the cylinder, the springs arent to bad, it looks mostly like surface rust, however, replacing them wouldnt hurt, do you know if the car sat for a long time? Your heads are fine, 041 castings arent terrible, and can be worked just like the rest and the measurements Should be around 40x35, i havent seen a 36 exhaust valve. for your pistons being numbered alittle different then 90.5, all pistons I have seen do the same thing, they arent perfect on the nose. for your 10.5 to 1, your combustion chamber has very little to do with it, if you have 1mm thick cylinder shims siting under the barrell, you might want to check that and then measure your deck height. this is what i would do,

get new barrels, your pistons and barrells are shot,
send your rods, crank, flywheel, pressure plate out to be balanced together
check your case (your PO doesnt look like he knew what he was doing, you might want to line bore your mains and cams and check to make sure the case is tapped for full flow.
send the heads out to be checked and change out the springs, you will have to probably buy a set of springs, I dont think anyones going to have 2 on the shelf. while the heads are out, have them 3 angle cut them.

then put it back with GERMAN bearings and gaskets, do not go china.... they do not last... HEED THE WARNING Lol

Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:43 am

thepadawan wrote: then put it back with GERMAN bearings and gaskets, do not go china.... they do not last... HEED THE WARNING Lol

Didn't mean to threadjack, but I am sure this information would be beneficial to all, what brands of bearings are from China?

Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:47 am

Engine size is relative to some people. I don't know how on earth they figure it out. One guy in our club says that you can't go over 1941cc. 1941? Yup. Why? Dunno, you just can't. :roll: "Yeah I built a eighteen oh twelve..."

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:27 pm

thepadawan wrote: do you know if the car sat for a long time?

I imagine that it did...the last PO said he didn't drive it much, and it has a "Hawaii" sticker on the bumper belonging to a parking garage or other institution, so that would explain the rust.

thepadawan wrote:
Your heads are fine, 041 castings arent terrible, and can be worked just like the rest and the measurements Should be around 40x35, i havent seen a 36 exhaust valve.

I remeasured the valve, and 35 mm it is. What kind of places do head work? Do you think they can do anything about those cracks by the spark plugs? What's required to change the springs? Is that the kind of thing I can do at home or should I send it out? I'm not afraid of work by any means, I just wonder if any special tools are required.

thepadawan wrote: if you have 1mm thick cylinder shims siting under the barrell, you might want to check that and then measure your deck height.

So cylinder shims sit between the block and the barrels?

What is "tapping for full flow"? The motor has an external oil cooler and filter, and has inlets and outlets for oil...so I had assumed that was "Full Flow". Is there anything else?

I've got the pushrod tubes, seals and gaskets ready to go, and that should help fix the oil leaks that originally started this problem. I really want to tear into this motor and check it out, but at the same time, it runs fine so I also feel like I should leave the motor alone while I work on the the body and convertible top. Once I'm done with the body work, or if the motor blows, then I could continue and get a real top notch motor going. I just hate putting a band-aid on a crap motor...damn the engineer in me.

stoneloco808 wrote:
IMO at the very minimum I would replace the valve springs, new cylinders or at least a set that is not pitted severly, gasket kit and a set of pushrod tubes.

Excellent advice...

stoneloco808 wrote:
Get the case cleaned up, hot tanked.
get the crank checked out, most likely polished.
get the heads checked out, bead blasted, valve job, check out valve guides and valves.

Hmmm...I'll have to see who does this kind of work...What do you look for when checking out the valve guides? I guess it's time for me to spend some quality time with the big blue book. :)

Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:32 pm

Throw away the rockers and save the shafts. Those are not forged units but cheap potmetals.

Also, do NOT hot-tank the case or it will get eaten up. Jetwash w/ for aluminum soap/water.

The cylinders are gone. Buy new set of pistons/cylinders. Save the old pistons.

I will just take it apart and rebuild it over.

Have the heads cleaned/ beadblasted so you can do proper inspection.

Prepare to open wallet.

Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:24 pm

The "E" on the piston really is an "M" if you read it like the other numbers- that would be the "M" for Mahle, one of the most popular P/C suppliers (originally from Germany).

I would also strongly recommend replacing the rusted valve springs, though if the inner springs are all good/unrusted then you'd only need a set of HD outers. Note- the outer springs usually are the same as single HD springs. Here's why-

11 years ago I accompanied the Der KAefer Fahrer (DKF) group from NY to Michigan. Bill Collins was driving his Hebmueller with a 36hp OKRASA engine and it lost power. We were right at a large highway rest area so among the group we quickly checked the engine and found that a valve spring had broken. It had surface rust at the break point just like yours, though it was purchased under the impression that it was "new". Luckily we came up with a good used spring from a local VW enthusiast (!!), installed the spring "by hand" and got underway.

Another part which I would strongly recommend replacing without question are your exhaust valves. Intakes can often be reused. With all of your valves out of the heads, your head shop/rebuilder should check valve guide wear and replace them as needed, then do the 3-angle VJ with the new exhaust valves. The rebuilder will most likely also bead-blast the head and combustion chambers so that you can see if there are any cracks from seat-to-seat or seat-to-sparkplug.

Once you get the new cylinders, see if your head rebuilder wants to seat each cylinder into the head for best sealing, or just makes a very slight "clean-up" cut on the perimeter of the head so that the cylinder sits completely flush.

He can also chase the sparkplug holes' threads so that when you reinstall the plugs, they all can be easily hand-tightened many turns until you need the wrench.

Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:49 pm

Since you're in Beautiful Hermosa Beach, I would recommend you take your heads, crank, rods and case to Brothers VW in Ontario.

http://www.brothersvwmachineshop.com/index.htm

Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:22 pm

FYI i had the heads off my 1915 buggy engine and the cyl looked almost identical water damage. money was tight, and the desert season was coming fast so I put new heads on and ran it. never skipped a beat, and ran all season long.. not saying it's a fantastic idea, just saying it worked. if i had the money I prolly wouldda put new jugs on it..

just sayin.

Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:56 pm

boleador wrote:

is this what happens when the ring gaps aren't above center? or is this related to worn out rings and barrels? I wouldn't think oil pools belong on that side of the piston.

did it puff blue smoke?

Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:35 pm

cptcliffhanger wrote:

FYI i had the heads off my 1915 buggy engine and the cyl looked almost identical water damage. money was tight, and the desert season was coming fast so I put new heads on and ran it. never skipped a beat, and ran all season long.. not saying it's a fantastic idea, just saying it worked. if i had the money I prolly wouldda put new jugs on it..

just sayin.

Well that's encouraging! Given the mess this thing is in, I was hoping to put it back together and deal with it after I'm done with the body work. I was surprised to see the damage in the cylinders given that the motor ran "just fine".

millerje78 wrote:

is this what happens when the ring gaps aren't above center? or is this related to worn out rings and barrels? I wouldn't think oil pools belong on that side of the piston.

did it puff blue smoke?

My girlfriend told me that she could see smoke coming out of the pipes when I accelerated, but couldn't tell me if it was black or blue. It definitely wasn't a chimney, and there wasn't a lot of oil consumption...then again, it's not a daily driver, so it's hard to gauge.

Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:30 pm

[quote="boleador"] thepadawan wrote: do you know if the car sat for a long time?

I imagine that it did...the last PO said he didn't drive it much, and it has a "Hawaii" sticker on the bumper belonging to a parking garage or other institution, so that would explain the rust.

the rust on the barrels suggest it was sitting for a while, most likely it sat for some time and then a low dollar mechanic broke the rings loose and ran it as it sits. theres all sorta presidential rigging going on with this one lol.

thepadawan wrote:
Your heads are fine, 041 castings arent terrible, and can be worked just like the rest and the measurements Should be around 40x35, i havent seen a 36 exhaust valve.

I remeasured the valve, and 35 mm it is. What kind of places do head work? Do you think they can do anything about those cracks by the spark plugs? What's required to change the springs? Is that the kind of thing I can do at home or should I send it out? I'm not afraid of work by any means, I just wonder if any special tools are required.

depending on what your shooting for, ALL creditable machine shops can do a valve job, if your thinkiing porting, take it to someone who knows what they are doing, NOT all, and really VERY few machine shops can port heads keeping velocity, CFM, and performance in mind. Many shops just hogg out the ports and call it "ported".

To change springs, go to autozone, get the 15 dollar spring compressor and call it a day, make sure you get the retainers in right! take your time, you can do it yourself, I would change all the springs at the same time, call me anal, but thats what I would do.

thepadawan wrote: if you have 1mm thick cylinder shims siting under the barrell, you might want to check that and then measure your deck height.

So cylinder shims sit between the block and the barrels?

yes, there are cylinder shims that sit between the barrell and case, there are shims that people put between the cylinder and head, thats another can of worms.

What is "tapping for full flow"? The motor has an external oil cooler and filter, and has inlets and outlets for oil...so I had assumed that was "Full Flow". Is there anything else?

I looked at your case form the pics, you have a full flow case, that is a good case to start with then! just to verify, check at your oil punp, there are two holes in the oil galley, are they plugged? if so, its full flow. However you have the adapter already so I am 95% it is a full flow

I've got the pushrod tubes, seals and gaskets ready to go, and that should help fix the oil leaks that originally started this problem. I really want to tear into this motor and check it out, but at the same time, it runs fine so I also feel like I should leave the motor alone while I work on the the body and convertible top. Once I'm done with the body work, or if the motor blows, then I could continue and get a real top notch motor going. I just hate putting a band-aid on a crap motor...damn the engineer in me.

IMHO, tear it open, when you take the heads and cylinders off, its 10 minutes till the case is split and your staring at the crank, where do you think the crap from your cylinders went?? Straight to all your bearings, id check them out, crap in the oil can really do harm to everything, rods, cranks.
This is how it will pan out if you dont, you will get new cylinders on it, you will get fresh heads, you will start making good power and then your rod bearings will start going, or your mains will go and your oil pressure will go threw the floor. If your only looking for a budget redo just split the case, do a line bore check, as long as they are close to a thousand out or under through in new bearings and go, I have been in a pinch before and run then with 1 and a half thousand out and the motor went 40,000 before oil pressure concerned me.

Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:44 pm

thepadawan wrote:
theres all sorta presidential rigging going on with this one lol.

:shock: wow, what an obnoxious comment.

Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:35 pm

millerje78 wrote: thepadawan wrote:
theres all sorta presidential rigging going on with this one lol.

:shock: wow, what an obnoxious comment.

word, and only 15 posts in :shock:

Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:36 pm

millerje78 wrote: thepadawan wrote:
theres all sorta presidential rigging going on with this one lol.

:shock: wow, what an obnoxious comment.
:roll: JOKE?...guess not,

should have said jerry ringing, cause no one cares about jerry...

Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:50 am

thepadawan wrote: millerje78 wrote: thepadawan wrote:
theres all sorta presidential rigging going on with this one lol.

:shock: wow, what an obnoxious comment.
:roll: JOKE?...guess not,

should have said jerry ringing, cause no one cares about jerry...

yeah, you should have. sorry, but racist jokes are never funny in my opinion.

Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:08 pm

Padawan, thanks for all the good info! I'm going to go through my "Compleat Idiots" book to see what tools I'll need to measure those bearings and bore.

"Presidential rigging?" let's not get our panties in a bunch...it's just a joke and I don't see the racism in it.

Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:13 pm

boleador wrote:

"Presidential rigging?" let's not get our panties in a bunch...it's just a joke and I don't see the racism in it.

you don't? okay, duly noted.