TheSamba.com :: View topic

Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:47 pm

I have read a bunch about spools in Type 1's on here and seen a bunch of responses from "they are expensive" to "you will die quickly"

I am building a Class 11 car for SNORE races and was wondering if anyone has first hand experience dealing with a spool in a type 1 off road only.

I don't care about tire life.

Handling may be interesting, but basicaly every other off road car I have had had either a locker or a spool in it. Heck, my rock buggy does great going fast and has a spool in it.

The fuel tank is still in the stock location, so I do have a bit of weight over the front end.

Basicaly, why would it be a bad idea?

Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:58 pm

Spool = Differential I am guessing.

If I were you I would take the tranny out and hand it to a tranny builder that deals with 11 cars and give it to him to make it legal and do all the needed upgrades (there will be a lot). Then put the tranny back in and follow the builders recomendation when to give it back to him for rebuild.

Then come up with your program after you have had your feet wet for awhile. Also google class 11 coalition as there is a lot of great info on there.

You will need to put a fuel cell in the car and I have always seen them located in the back seat.

One more thing. They Class 11 cages they sell are not legal for racing.

Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:06 pm

shred625 wrote: Spool = Differential I am guessing.

If I were you I would take the tranny out and hand it to a tranny builder that deals with 11 cars and give it to him to make it legal and do all the needed upgrades (there will be a lot). Then put the tranny back in and follow the builders recomendation when to give it back to him for rebuild.

Then come up with your program after you have had your feet wet for awhile. Also google class 11 coalition as there is a lot of great info on there.

You will need to put a fuel cell in the car and I have always seen them located in the back seat.

One more thing. They Class 11 cages they sell are not legal for racing.

Yes, Spool = differential

I'll probably have a tranny shop do the instal. But I may do it myself.

I've been on the coalition for a couple of years now.

A fuel cell is not required. The stock tank is permissable in the stock location.

I already built my cage. I understand that the mild steel cage kits are not legal.
Mine is legal

Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:23 pm

IMO, spools are cheap. In comparison to other needed parts, they are very cheap.

So, why not try one out? I would expect you to take the finished car out and get used to it, if the spool does not work, yank it out before racing.

I too have run spools , lockers, posi's and open rears. A locker can be harsh in the handeling department on the street effecting cornering abality drastically depending on how tight it is set up. 80 mph in the dirt with a spool and going into a corner may increase the pucker factor. Let us know how it does.

Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:02 pm

joescoolcustoms wrote: 80 mph in the dirt with a spool and going into a corner may increase the pucker factor.

LOL, this is a class 11 were talking about here, not a class 1. I think 80 MPH is a little over it's top speed........

Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:06 pm

bdkw1 wrote: joescoolcustoms wrote: 80 mph in the dirt with a spool and going into a corner may increase the pucker factor.

LOL, this is a class 11 were talking about here, not a class 1. I think 80 MPH is a little over it's top speed........

We can hit 80 in our Class 9, you ought to be able at least go that fast in the same stuff (read as Terminal Velocity at the Mint).

Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:19 pm

There is a big difference between a 9 car and a 11 car ;)

I am unconcerned about handling characteristics at 80 ;)

Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:23 pm

Car will not turn in the dirt! don't run a spool.

Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:43 pm

I saw a welded up diff (poor mans spool) and he had to work the signle left or right brake HARD to get it to turn. I wouldn't recommend it if just learning.

Gary Massin-Ball wrote: Car will not turn in the dirt! don't run a spool.

Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:32 am

My opinion on a spool is it is a drag strip only item.
Your using a turning brake to go faster through a corner to make better time. A turning brake will not function at all with a spool. Now your losing time. The axle becomes a straight axle like an old 250R ATC. Are you going to drift it around every corner? Ever drive in 4wd with a welded or spooled front diff? It is a joke. Even with power steering turning becomes a major chore. On an severe slope a turning brake can be use to stay horizontal by appling the brake on the highest side. The lower wheel drives the car up the hill offsetting gravity.

Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:38 am

A plate type set up to only lock under acceleration works fairly well.

Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:21 am

Gary Massin-Ball wrote: Car will not turn in the dirt! don't run a spool.

Okay, why? Have you tried it yourself?

xirxious wrote: I saw a welded up diff (poor mans spool) and he had to work the signle left or right brake HARD to get it to turn. I wouldn't recommend it if just learning.

You do realize that spools make cutting brakes completely useless right? They stop ANY differential speed between the sides.

perrib wrote: My opinion on a spool is it is a drag strip only item.
Your using a turning brake to go faster through a corner to make better time. A turning brake will not function at all with a spool. Now your losing time. The axle becomes a straight axle like an old 250R ATC. Are you going to drift it around every corner? Ever drive in 4wd with a welded or spooled front diff? It is a joke. Even with power steering turning becomes a major chore. On an severe slope a turning brake can be use to stay horizontal by appling the brake on the highest side. The lower wheel drives the car up the hill offsetting gravity.

Yep, you got it. And for the most part I will be on the gas through the turns. This is a race car. It'll be driven. The rear wheels will "push" the front end through corners. I just do not know how badly. the track width on a 11 car is pretty narrow, so I can't think it would be as bad as a wider truck. Why it would be harder to turn the steering wheel as well. The front beam is not locked. Only the back. And to answer your question. Yes I have driven multiple rigs with spools front and rear (and lockers and limited slips). My rock rig (coiled 106" WB FJ40) has a spool in the back and (now) a detroit in front. It was spooled front and rear before. I LOVE the handling. No quirks on road and gets great traction off road. Heck, my daily driver is a FJ60 Cruiser that is locked in the front and rear.
There are not any side hills that are that bad on the race courses. And again, I have not found the major sidehill issues in other trucks. Admittedly there are WB differences but it works in a VERY short WB chassis (quad) without issue. Donno...

PhillipM wrote: A plate type set up to only lock under acceleration works fairly well.

Yes they do. And, if I found one for the price I got the spool for, I'd have jumped on it.

One of the major time losses when racing an 11 car is getting stuck in the silt. We are talking Hours of potential downtime during a race just getting unstuck. Class 1, 1450 and TT's make big holes that a car with 29" tires have a hard time getting through (yeah, I know, don't drive through the ruts, sometimes you can't help it). If I can reduce the number of stuck situations, it would be a serious advantage...

Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:15 am

perrib wrote: Ever drive in 4wd with a welded or spooled front diff? It is a joke. Even with power steering turning becomes a major chore.

My old Bronco had spools front and rear. Was the most fun vehicle to rally around in the desert. Tight sandy trails were like magic for cornering. OF course it did have ram assist power steering.......

Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:45 am

Is a spool allowed by class rules?

How about a limited slip?

Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:45 am

i think it could work quite well, quads have no trouble turning. there is no need for a diff if you have enough power to spin BOTH wheels (sure beats having only one of them spinning). if you don't have enough power to keep both wheels spinning, it may be tricky to turn.. who knows! TRY IT!!!

Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:17 pm

cptcliffhanger wrote: i think it could work quite well, quads have no trouble turning. there is no need for a diff if you have enough power to spin BOTH wheels (sure beats having only one of them spinning). if you don't have enough power to keep both wheels spinning, it may be tricky to turn.. who knows! TRY IT!!!

My 0.02

A quad rider has the ability to really shift his body around to modify the weight distribution on the wheels. In tight turns, they're leaning forward to get the back end loose. It's kind of tough to do this in a car.

That being said, I'm following this thread since a spool might be really nice to keep my heavy Thing from diggin into the sand with one wheel. It's doubtfull I would do it, but interesting to see opinions none-the-the less.

Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:27 pm

yep, my 40 is a blast.. It is full hydro tho. I still don't see how a spool in the rear would make it physically harder to turn the wheel. The car just won't turn as easily due to the back wanting to "push" the front.

Yes it is legal for my class. Whether it is a good idea or not remains to be seen. I have yet to speak to ANYONE that has tried it...

Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:53 pm

I'd run it. You will only ever notice crabbing at extremely low speed on pavement or rocks. Any kind of dirt will give you enough tire slippage to act as a diff. In the rain I could see it being a handfull in technical sections.

Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:32 pm

I have driven a Toyota 4x4 with a before when it had a front locker and after the locker broke with the spider gears welded. As a spool It was very hard to turn even at slow speeds off road. If I owned a 4x4 it would have an ARB style locker not a spool.

Getting back to the spool for the VW. You might as well try try. I forgot you were open desert racing. I have seen the silt beds. They are nasty, My only concern would be how long a drag racing spool will hold up to large tires and the constant pounding of the rough terrain. The trophy trucks use spools but they don't have the engine on top of the rear diff.

Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:33 pm

opps :oops: