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Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:29 pm

First of all, I would like to state that I am well aware that there are many threads dedicated to engine removal on this lovely forum, however, I was unable to find one that contained the information I so desperately seek.

I've followed all the directions in the Muir book for proper 1600 engine removal, cross-referenced the procedures with the Bentley manual and analyzed them six ways from Sunday and received more head injuries than I care to mention and now I have hit a sticking point. I am at the point where I am removing the last two engine mounting bolts, the ones behind the fan shroud, the Muir book says that 1600's have to have the drivers side upper bolt removed from underneath the bus, the Bentley manual says that there is only one upper mounting bolt on the '71 and it is on the passengers side. The Muir book says that the nut/bolt/what have you is 17mm. I have found a nut/bolt/what have you around where the alleged bolt is supposedly located, however it is a 13mm or thereabouts.

One further question. Earlier in the removal process I read that one is to remove the four bolts from the rear engine brace, and then remove the brace. I am, for purposes of this, assuming that the engine brace is the piece of metal that runs across the underside of the engine near the back of the car. My books said that the way to remove the brace is from the underside of the car. Have I removed the wrong bolts because I found it extremely unnecessary to crawl under the car?

Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:41 pm

There are 4 bolts holding the engine to the trans. The one on the passenger top is blind. You need a 17mm box end or 11/64. You have to reach around behind the shroud and feel for the NUT. Slide the box end on and remove it. Once you have done it a couple times it only takes 30 seconds.

It has been awhile since I pulled a 1971. I used to pull the bolts off the bottom of the motor mount then jack the engine up a tiny amount so the mounts would clear the motor mount pads. There are 3 bolts that hold the moustache bar onto the back of the engine. I think you can just pull the engine with the moustache bar still on it and take it off later.

Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:56 pm

SGKent is correct. You can remove the motor with the mustache bar attached. In fact it gives you something to hold onto when you need to balance the motor on the jack when pulling it out. You should have the removeable apron so getting a hold of the motor and balancing it on the jack is even easier.

Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:08 pm

Muir and VW in the Bentley speak different languages so that might have added to your confusion. Like mentioned, there are three bolts to remove from underneath on the front side of the bell housing. Two bottom and one driver side upper. The 4th one is also the upper bolt holding the starter. The nut on that bolt is at the passenger side in front of the fan shroud. 17mm wrench. The bolt head at the starter side is shaped to prevent it from turning as you remove the nut. However as the nut get loosened the bolt will want to push forward and try to rotate. If that happens pull or pry back on it. The opposite when putting it back together. You're trying to get the nut started on a bolt that wants to push forward.
Remove the rear apron for access to the mounts at both ends of the engine mounting bar (moustache bar). Remove the bolt at the bottom of the rubber mounts and not the nut on top. Otherwise you have to jack the engine up higher to get the mounting bar off of the rubber mounts. The rubber mounts sometimes can be installed upside down. They want to be installed with the nut on top.
Be sure and support the trans.

Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:27 pm

I always referred to that nut as the "zen nut" on my '68. Getting it off is easy. Getting it back on is a little trickier without a friend to hold it in place.

Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:40 pm

drober23 wrote: I always referred to that nut as the "zen nut" on my '68. Getting it off is easy. Getting it back on is a little trickier without a friend to hold it in place.

Clean threads on the bolt and on the nut make it very easy to do by yourself. I have done it to many times to count on all sort of VW's. Once started, you can turn them by hand until you need a 17mm wrench, but I have also been told I have fingers like a vice grip...... :lol: :lol:

The third bolt on the drivers side upper is some times a bitch to get at. Best to use a 12" socket extension and 17mm socket, have a good work light so you can see what you are doing. I have found that the first couple of turns on the bolt you are only grabbing a very small amount of the bolt head and then as it backs out the socket will slide down over it. I have also found that is best to make it the last bolt you reinstall. JMO!

As for the mustache bar, do it just as Desertbusman suggested....makes it much easier.

Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:53 pm

there is a chance that the third bolt on the upper driver side bellhousing bolt may not even be there. I don't know how many VW's would come into the shop with that bolt missing. I would have to imagine roughly a third of them would be missing hem, therefore holding the engine to the transaxle with only 3 bolts. I guess many people have such a pain in the butt getting it out, they just leave them out. but, there should be 4 . as to the 13mm bolt you referred to, it could possibly possibly be the upper transmission mount bolts you feel.

Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:33 pm

Desertman said this but didnt explain why:
Nothing holds the trans up once you unbolt the engine from it, if you don't support the trans you may have shifting problems upon reinstallation.

Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:49 pm

drober23 wrote: I always referred to that nut as the "zen nut" on my '68. Getting it off is easy. Getting it back on is a little trickier without a friend to hold it in place.

Two words...chewing gum!

Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:47 am

I would like to thank everybody so much for the information, I am much less confused now.

I bent my arm every which way I could in search for the last bolt to no avail. I took a close look at where the transmission meets with the engine and I found an approximately half centimeter gap at the bottom that gets ever so slowly narrower towards the top. I suspect this means that there still is a bolt somewhere.

silverside61 wrote: as to the 13mm bolt you referred to, it could possibly possibly be the upper transmission mount bolts you feel.
Does the upper transmission mount bolt go on to a stud that seems to be running through a hole in the bell housing towards the engine?

TimGud wrote: Nothing holds the trans up once you unbolt the engine from it, if you don't support the trans you may have shifting problems upon reinstallation. I've got a couple of 2x4s holding the trans up at this point.

Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:19 am

That nut and bolt are behind that shroud. The first time I did this it took me forever to find the nut. Get yourself a mirror or two and have a look with a light hanging behind the shroud. Trust me, once you see it you will understand what everyone is saying.

Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:40 am

If you have a doghouse shroud (my 71 does) then there is a boss in the case for the upper drivers side bolt. The bolt goes into that boss from the front of the motor..
Good Luck!

Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:56 am

drober23 wrote: I always referred to that nut as the "zen nut" on my '68. Getting it off is easy. Getting it back on is a little trickier without a friend to hold it in place.

I use a dab of wheel bearing grease on the head of the bolt to hold it till I get the nut started. Works just fine for me.

Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:51 am

PetulantCobra wrote: I would like to thank everybody so much for the information, I am much less confused now.

I bent my arm every which way I could in search for the last bolt to no avail. I took a close look at where the transmission meets with the engine and I found an approximately half centimeter gap at the bottom that gets ever so slowly narrower towards the top. I suspect this means that there still is a bolt somewhere.

[quote="silverside61" as to the 13mm bolt you referred to, it could possibly possibly be the upper transmission mount bolts you feel.
Does the upper transmission mount bolt go on to a stud that seems to be running through a hole in the bell housing towards the engine?

[quote="TimGud" Nothing holds the trans up once you unbolt the engine from it, if you don't support the trans you may have shifting problems upon reinstallation.[/quote] I've got a couple of 2x4s holding the trans up at this point.[/quote]

I took 2 photos for you since my engine and tranny are out. I just inserted a bolt on the drivers side to show you how they look, and one of the area under the doghouse where the threaded insert is that the bolt threads into. It is possible that someone put in a bolt with a different sized head. And was stated tie, chain, but support your tranny before you drop the engine.

Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:45 am

Nice job with the pictures Peaceful Warrior. Those should make it very clear to him if he doesn't know what everyone meant about a "D" shaped bolt holding the starter in place.

Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:38 pm

Quote: It is possible that someone put in a bolt with a different sized head.

That must have been what happened because the location of the drivers side bolt in the picture is exactly where the bolt that is too small is located. The too-smallness was throwing me off, I'm going to attempt to pull the engine now. I'll report back soon.

Thanks again to everybody for the help.

Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:42 pm

PetulantCobra wrote: Quote: It is possible that someone put in a bolt with a different sized head.

That must have been what happened because the location of the drivers side bolt in the picture is exactly where the bolt that is too small is located. The too-smallness was throwing me off, I'm going to attempt to pull the engine now. I'll report back soon.

Thanks again to everybody for the help.

Git 'er done, and report back! :D

Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:52 pm

D shaped bolt: Removed
3 other bolts on transmission: Removed
Rubber Bumper things between engine and Mustache bar: outta there
Accel cable: Gone
Fuel lines: detached
Wiring: de-wired
Engine: Hung up on something

I started to back the engine out with just slight pressure on it from the atv jack that I found at the pawn shop. The engine came back about an inch or so, then it got hung up on something. It wiggles side to side and up and down like nobody's business, and that is all it does, even when being helped by a person who has an unusual capacity to lift heavy things. I ran through the procedures again and I think I disconnected everything.

Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:01 pm

Two things maybe:

Have you removed the apron and the bumper?

Check for rocks, a twig, something jamming the jack wheel?

Dumb stuff gets me every time...

Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:05 pm

Pulley apron and bumper are also removed. As is the exhaust, which was after-market and extremely in the way. The air filter is removed too. Jack wheels look clear.