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Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:31 pm

Sifting through my collection of bolts, cleaning & plating them I have found several different brands. (Kamax, Knipping, Dorn, Verbus, Karro, Rasche, NSF) Does anyone know of a reference chart or know from experience a what year(s) a brand was used? I have been accused of being slightly anal (doesn't everyone sort M&M''s by color before eating them?) and I am trying to put the correct hardware on my 11/52 zwitter. Most common appears to be Kamax.

Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:55 pm

LOL Bill, I actually sort M&Ms by color before eating them, no lie!!

I have found the following bolts on splits and ovals, and this is in my own unscientific order of frequency, starting with the most commonly found at the top of the list. Again, just my own observations..

Kamax
Rasche
Knipping
Verbus
Dorn

I have not found any NSF or Karro HW on my VWs, but that does not mean they were not used. And in the list above, I'd say 50% Kamax, 15% each Rasche/Knipping and Verbus, and Dorn maybe 5%.

About. :wink:

I recently sorted all my VW HW by brand and keep them in big ziploc bags.

So one last question Bill, what about Trial Mix? You know, raisins, peanuts, chocolate chips, sunflower seeds...... etc. Surely you must sort that before eating too......!!

Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:07 pm

Out here in California our mix is fruits, nuts and flakes.....

While on this topic and the plating of the fasteners, how do we replicate the nice shiny black hot oil dip finish such that it does not rub off and stays purdy and does not rust?

Most I see have a dark brown finish applied which just ain't right. Parkerizing is NOT the correct finish. What gets us looking close?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:07 pm

Ah bolts bolts bolts.
My passion....Kamax is the most common used on Split era cars with the odd Rasche, Knippring thrown in for good measure.
Now for my Kabrio restoration, after an exhaustive search and lots of trials to get the correct looking finish that will last, we went for Black chrome, it looks spot on and does not wear off unlike the passified finishes of black zinc etc.

Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:33 pm

john, thanks for info, I agree with your assessment, follows what I have seen so far.

As far as trail mix, I don't eat it, however I have been curious as to why they call it trail mix as I never come across peanuts or M&M producing trees on the trails I walk on...yet I digress.

As far as plating goes since I try to do everything myself I purchased Eastwood's "metal blackening kit" and found it to be pretty good. Wish I had some before pictures for you (But they are pan bolts so you can imagine what they looked like). Basically I dumped the whole lot into muriatic acid (be careful with this stuff boys) let them sit for an hour, rinsed in water, sprayed them with degreaser supplied with kit, dumped them in the blackening solution, rinsed in water, dried, then spray with clear satin supplied in kit. Also used it on the hood handle. Cool thing is you don't lose definition of stampings as with a satin black paint.

Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:33 pm

I am working on lists for all my cars of where each brand came from and what grade markings were present, I have seen original NSF bolts on a 1956 oval and also on Kubels yet my June '52 has none, I'm pretty sure I have seen a few cars with mixed and matched brands for such common types and sizes as hood hinges, fenders and floor pan bolts, of course we would like to believe that everything was assembled with surgical precision yet the truth is to an assembly line worker a bolt is a bolt and once the bolt bin was running low it was filled with whichever manufacturers bolt was available, Idealy I strive to restore a car as it was assembled and not necessicarily to a higher standard, thus I try and record and replace mismatched fastener brands where I find them and I would enjoy pointing this feature out to onloockers, I have a 1955 Beetle sunroof which has one odd weld nut holding the left front fender on, they did not use the standard weld nuts on '54s or '55s they used heavier duty solid square nuts for the fenders and the '54 style nut is even different from the '55s yet my '55 has one leftover '54 weld nut on the LF fender, I guess I'm going to need to attatch pics when I get home from work again :D

Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:51 pm

I must be getting the disease, I sorted the last bag of gummy bears the wife gave me! :shock:

Anyway, I thought of using a tumbler to clean old hardware instead of acid, anyone try it yet?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:32 pm

i just used a wire wheel on my bench grinder to clean off my kamax beam bolts, and verbus master cylinder bolts... came out great. Watch your fingers though! Use vice grips if needed.

Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:43 pm

derluftwagen wrote: I must be getting the disease, I sorted the last bag of gummy bears the wife gave me! :shock:

Anyway, I thought of using a tumbler to clean old hardware instead of acid, anyone try it yet?

It's OK derluftwagen, there is a support group out there for us OCD folks...

I bought a Harbor Freight vibratory tumbler, have let it run for up to 12+ hours, tried different grits and some of those supposedly aggressive geometric triangle media things, and still no good results. Doesn't get "down deep" and textures vary.

I get best results with the wire wheel, but it can be tedious. For small stuff, I but it in a can with small holes drilled in the bottom and shoot the glass bead blaster in the can while in the blast cabinet. Works better than the tumbler, but still not as good as the wire wheel. Trick for small stuff is to use pliers to grab the head from its side to hold it against the wheel. The release and rotate about 90 degrees and go again, repeat...

To Bill point about Eastwood's blackener, I have heard good things about it, but have yet to try it. I will probably use it for all my '51 HW though.

I have a friend out in central MA who tears down cars and throws all the HW in coffee cans and I buy everything he has at the CT shows in the summer (except the "late" 13mm head M8 stuff, eeeeaw). If anyone needs one or a few pieces to make up a complete set of something, drop me a PM....

Lastly, I have always thought for us OCD types who have sorted all our HW, we should have a "HW Traders Forum" here, where could post "Wanted, M8x35mm Kamax, have Rasche and Knipping M6 and M8s to trade". Sick, but could be effective.

Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:33 pm

I always pick the shelled sunflower nut meats out of the bag before diving into the shell-on seeds, does that count or am I just lazy?

I'm in need of (any OEM maker) eight M10x30DIN bolts for the spring plate covers and two M10x15DIN bolts for my pedal cluster if anyone has some spares.

In exchange I'll offer to separate an entire bag of peanut M&M's and send it to you in carefully marked, separate baggies.

Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:55 pm

nlorntson wrote: I always pick the shelled sunflower nut meats out of the bag before diving into the shell-on seeds, does that count or am I just lazy?

I'm in need of (any OEM maker) eight M10x30DIN bolts for the spring plate covers and two M10x15DIN bolts for my pedal cluster if anyone has some spares.

In exchange I'll offer to separate an entire bag of peanut M&M's and send it to you in carefully marked, separate baggies.

I'll have a look and see what I have for M10s Nancy. I'll have to pass on the M&Ms as I am on a near no-sugar diet, but I do like a good quality trail mix with almonds in it (and no chocolate of course...)....

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:40 pm

I had to laugh at your critique on the vibrator John, I bought the same one and went through the same process with the same results. Maybe I can clean it up and use it for a food processor or something.

I have used the wire wheel and sandblasting in a cabinet but like you say it is tedious at best. If your planning on doing any plating you need to get to bare metal any rust, paint, oil, particulates will show through. In the end you will get hooked on acid. :shock:

I learned a valuable lesson from John at the Terryville show last summer...get there before he does :lol:

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:31 pm

So the evapo-rust from harbor freight wont get all the rust off the thread?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:58 pm

I have spent endless mindless hours cleaning bolts on my Split and Ghia. I have used Eastwood tumblers, Muratic acid solutions, wire wheels, Eastwood plating kits, etc. None really worked all that great especially when exposed to the elements. I am going to need to at least do my fender bolts again. Thought for sure the clear coating would have protected them.

-Craig

BTW.
If anyone has one inspection cover screw let me know as I launched mine into orbit with a wire wheel never to be found again.

Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:15 pm

coolairX2 wrote: ......I launched mine into orbit with a wire wheel never to be found again.

Yeah, somewhere out there in every garage/shop are a whole bunch of hard to find bolts and screws, hiding under the dust in the corner. ....!

Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:48 pm

coolairX2 wrote: I launched mine into orbit with a wire wheel never to be found again.

I prefer to send nice shiny chrome trim pieces that I am polishing for my boss's 56 Nomad across the shop when the wheel grabs a sharp edge........
Good thing he usually doesnt hang around the shop.............

Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:00 pm

johnshenry wrote: I'll have a look and see what I have for M10s Nancy. I'll have to pass on the M&Ms as I am on a near no-sugar diet, but I do like a good quality trail mix with almonds in it (and no chocolate of course...)....

Much appreciated John. I have the perfect trail mix blend for you. 8) Send a PM with your address.

Nancy

Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:17 pm

When I restored my 56 oval, the plater did a process called "black oxide" to the chassis hardware - it looked pretty good, although they seemed kind of greasy when they came back. I'm not sure what the actual process is....

Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:41 am

Maybe this process (sorry in Finnish)

http://timo.santerihapponen.net/mustaus/
http://timo.santerihapponen.net/mustaus/index2.html

Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:48 am

I used a kit from Frost Auto Restoration Techniques (unfortunately the anacronym is FART...), which I think could be the same as the Eastwood kit. I cleaned some of the hardware well, some of it less well, and obviously the better the prep, the better the results. The black sticks beautifully to fresh metal but not to rust, even after treating with the de-rusting solution. I swore (lots) that I'd work out some kind of method of holding the bolts securely without damaging threads, but never got around to it. Perhaps a little jig inside a blasting cabinet, so if the wire wheel shoots it somewhere it's easier to find?

Oh, and my brother went to the States a few years ago and brought me back an M&M gift set - 12 colours, all separated off in one rather cool acrylic box. Of course, I ate them in colour order... :oops: