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Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:04 pm

I have a 61 Beetle. I've had brake light problems since I first brought it home. I've tried everything with no success. My turnsignal switch is the correct 6 wire switch for my car. I have a new 8 wire switch from a later car. Can I swap this out with no problems? If you look at a wiring diagram for a 61, the power for the brake lights run from the switch in the master cylinder through the turnsignal switch back to the brake lights. Mine don't always function. I've replaced the switch in the master cylinder, clean the grounds, etc. Still no solution. Only thing I can think may be the problem is the turnsignal switch. Am I right on this?

Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:32 pm

What exactly is the issue?

Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:38 pm

brake lights don't work. i've tried everything.

Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:15 pm

Funny. Mine don't turn off. But I've traced the problem, (I think) and If I were you, I would start with checking the ground at the lamps themselves, and also check to see if the lights are being energized at immediately after the fuse panel. Before you go ahead and cut in a new switch. Check here http://www.vintagebus.com/wiring for a wiring diagram

Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:10 am

GangSawSuicide wrote: Funny. Mine don't turn off. But I've traced the problem, (I think) and If I were you, I would start with checking the ground at the lamps themselves, and also check to see if the lights are being energized at immediately after the fuse panel. Before you go ahead and cut in a new switch. Check here http://www.vintagebus.com/wiring for a wiring diagram

i have. multiple times with no success. everything checks out. i have power until i come out of the switch.

Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:48 am

I have a similar problem on my '61 with the correct turn signal switch. You can read the thread I started here. Based on all of the info I provided, the feedback I received is that my switch is most likely bad. I'm going to re-test my switch with a meter probably this weekend, as I didn't do the full test as suggested by glutamodo. If it turns out the swtich is bad, I'm going to take it apart and attempt to fix it. To answer your initial question, I'm no expert, but you could probably use an 8-wire switch with some extra relays. I remember reading that people have used 3-wire switches on '60s and '61s and made them work. Good luck and let me know how it turns out.

Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:36 am

Rometsch2880 wrote: I have a 61 Beetle. I've had brake light problems since I first brought it home. I've tried everything with no success. My turnsignal switch is the correct 6 wire switch for my car. I have a new 8 wire switch from a later car. Can I swap this out with no problems?

8 wire switch? I don't know what switch you mean that will fit a 1960-1967 steering column. If you mean one from like 1968-up, then no way, it's not going to work, those are basically 3-wire switches, sometimes with an extra set of redundant wires that can be cut off. But regardless of how many wires you see coming out of them, internally. all Bug turn signal switches starting in 1962 are simple 3-wire setup, terminal 49a, then L or R turns. You might have extra wires for like the high beam switch, but the heart of the turn signal portion is just L/R/49a, and 61/older needs those plus VR, VL and 54st terminals.

Of course, as mentioned above, you can make a 3-wire switch work. One way is by using a couple of DPDT relays, the other is by using a trailer wiring harness adapter (12V only), that's been discussed many times here before, I just did the other day: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=401858&highlight=

-Andy

Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:46 am

glutamodo wrote: Rometsch2880 wrote: I have a 61 Beetle. I've had brake light problems since I first brought it home. I've tried everything with no success. My turnsignal switch is the correct 6 wire switch for my car. I have a new 8 wire switch from a later car. Can I swap this out with no problems?

8 wire switch? I don't know what switch you mean that will fit a 1960-1967 steering column. If you mean one from like 1968-up, then no way, it's not going to work, those are basically 3-contact switches, sometimes with and extra set of redundant wires that can be cut off. But regardless of how many wires you see coming out of them, internally. all Bug turn signal switches starting in 1962 are simple 3-wire setup, terminal 49a, then L or R turns. You might have extra wires for like the high beam switch, but the heart of the turn signal portion is just L/R/49a, and 61/older needs those plus VR, VL and 54st terminals.

Of course, as mentioned above, you can make a 3-wire switch work. One way is by using a couple of DPDT relays, the other is by using a trailer wiring harness adapter (12V only), that's been discussed many times here before, I just did the other day: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=401858&highlight=

-Andy

well, when i initially bought the car it came with an extra turnsignal switch. as if someone knew that was the problem and hadn't gotten around to fixing it yet. anyways, i went to switch it one evening and noticed that the replacement switch had two more wires than the one that was currently on the car. regardless, i've seen many posts by you andy, you seem to know what youre talking about. so if you say it can be done, i'll do it. all i want is a set of working brake lights. i don't want the back of my bug smashed. it has been converted to 12v, so i'll see what i can do about this and hopefully remedy this problem.

Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:52 am

andy,

the trailer wiring thing looks simpler. how is it wired in for it to function?

Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:56 am

I should ask you some more about this other switch you have - What kind of switch is it then? Is it the 60-67 style of switch or something different? What are the wire colors on it?

If it's a style that fits your column, then it's possible that someone had a 60-61 switch that they had the optional high-beam flasher switch added onto. That would give you a correct switch.

-Andy

Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:00 am

glutamodo wrote: I should ask you some more about this other switch you have - What kind of switch is it then? Is it the 60-67 style of switch or something different? What are the wire colors on it?

If it's a style that fits your column, then it's possible that someone had a 60-61 switch that they had the optional high-beam flasher switch added onto. That would give you a correct switch.

-Andy

true, i never thought of that. it doesnt have the high-beam flasher switch. does that give me a correct switch?

Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:46 am

One thing I forgot to mention, if the car is your only mode of transportation right now & you need to drive it, and if you don't care about your turn signals at the rear for now, you can bypass the turn signal switch and hook the wire from the brake switch directly to your tail lights. That's what I did. I finally brought my car home after having it at my friend's house for the last five months. It was a ~35 mile drive and I wasn't about to drive even 3 miles without brake lights.

Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:59 am

Rometsch2880 wrote:

true, i never thought of that. it doesnt have the high-beam flasher switch. does that give me a correct switch?

No, probably not. Can you post a photo of what you got? Or list the wire colors on this switch?

Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:46 pm

glutamodo wrote: Rometsch2880 wrote:

true, i never thought of that. it doesnt have the high-beam flasher switch. does that give me a correct switch?

No, probably not. Can you post a photo of what you got? Or list the wire colors on this switch?

heres a pic i took with my iphone. i can get more if needed. the colors of the wire are: green/black/white, blue/black, black/white.

Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:59 pm

You may have already tried this but in case you haven't. Step on the brake pedal and wiggle the turn signal switch up and down, forward and back, in all three positions and see if you get any flickering of the brake lights.

On my 60 sedan I had a similar problem and traced it to the turn signal switch. Inside the switch there is a thin phenolic "board" that is basically riveted in place. All the wires enter the switch and are soldered to one side of this board and there are corresponding brass contact points on the other side.

What happened with mine is this phenolic piece became slightly bent or warped, thus not allowing a good positive contact between the corresponding contact points on the lever...

and the points on the phenolic piece. (See pic. in my next reply.)

What I did was pried (carefully) the phenolic piece up so that is was straight again and reset the rivets holding it in place, then cleaned all contact points and reassembled. It works very well now.

Taking the switch apart is quite simple.

Here's a post I made quite awhile ago that shows it apart but it doesn't show the piece I mentioned.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=326783&highlight=

I have an extra 6 wire switch that I can take apart and snap pictures of if Andy doesn't have anything.

Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:18 pm

I don't have any other 6-wire switch photos, not taken apart that is.

Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:56 pm

Here's a couple pictures of a 6 wire switch from a 60.

As you can see in the pic. below, this one has the same issue as my other one. I'm kinda wondering if this isn't a typical problem. With this one, you can actually wiggle it around it's so loose.

The whole piece is made up of three layers of the phenolic material. Its held in place at each end by what looks like rivets. These rivets can be "smashed" down a little with a punch (carefully) to tighten things up. If that doesn't work, they could probably be drilled out and replaced with small screws.

I hope this helps solve your troubles.

Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:42 am

Rometsch2880 wrote:

heres a pic i took with my iphone. i can get more if needed. the colors of the wire are: green/black/white, blue/black, black/white.

I thought you said it had 8 wires??? To me, that looks like a typical 62-65 3-wire switch. You have three main wires, and then the blue one which is connected to the green/black/white wire (that's just a guess cause I can't see the actual wire ends in the picture)

If that is what you have, your options are either the trailer adaptor or the relays that Andy mentioned. Or find a working 6-wire switch.

Here is a link that shows how to wire up the trailer adapter.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=391685

Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:09 pm

took the turnsignal arm apart earlier this evening and heres what i saw:

see anything wrong? i've never done this before, so its all new to me. like i said in a prior post, the lights work occasionally. i have no clue what the problem is. i've checked and cleaned every ground, replaced the brake light switch, and anything else with no success. i'm ready to pull my hair out. the turn signals work fine, by the way.

Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:05 am

This thread is giving me a headache..!

First I was looking at duginabug's photos of his 6-wire switch, trying to figure out just how just those two large contacts could possibly do all the switching needed for all three configurations. I still don't know how it's possible. (not having the pinout on those terminals doesn't help either - if I had that it probably would be apparant to me. )

But that's a different brand switch than the one shown just above, with a different layout inside. The one above, SWF switch, right?

I thought those had 4 contacts, one per spring. It's been way too long for me to remember for sure, and I may have the left and right backwards in my diagram, but I think the contacts in this switch need to be set up for 6-wire something like this:

Two short contacts, lined up straight, which connect the brake (ST) light wire to left rear (LR) and right rear (RR)

A total of two sort of triangular shaped contacts (one left, one right) that, when the switch is centered, both sit on their respective the left front (LF) and right front (RF) terminals, making no connections, but when you make a turn it rotates over and connects to the flasher relay (49A) terminal as well as that sides rear terminal. And simultaneously when the switch is turned the other contact moves away and disconnects the ST connection from the flashing side's rear bulb.

I took your photo and drew on it how I'm guessing the contacts need to be here:

And looking at your photos, I'm only seeing 3 out of those 4 contacts. I'm guess it's the triangular ones I see there laying there in the switch handle, but only one of the two small brake light contacts there in the separate photo, and I think that's other piece helps keep those contacts lined up or something.

-Andy