TheSamba.com :: View topic - Is it Necessary to have thermostat and ring?

Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:17 am

Hey guys,

Rebuilding a 36hp motor for my 56. Just about to put the fan shroud on. I am just wondering if it is necessary to put the thermostat in with the whole contraption that gets set up behind the shroud??

I would think it would restrict air flow in many ways.

Your thoughts?

Chris

Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:14 am

Yes, you should put it in if you are trying to recreate the stock setup. It's part of the original design to maintain correct engine operating temps. Without it your engine will take longer to warm up, especially since you live in a part of the country where it is cool much of the year. The airflow is restricted by the ring while the engine is cold, so that it warms up faster. It moves out of the way when the engine is warm.

Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:40 am

You don't need all that stuff! VW spent millions of dollars making all those parts just so they could have a tax write off. It doesn't really do anything but complicate the build process.

So just throw that stuff away.

After all, you like rebuilding engines don't you? If not, get used to it! Because without all those carefully engineered parts in place and working correctly, you are going to be doing it over and over again!

This is an air cooled engine! There is no radiator and all that stuff manages the air flow to keep things running the way they are supposed to run.

The car was designed to run full throttle through the desert for 24 hours at a time without over heating. Do you really think you can improve on that?

Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:37 pm

My mechanic years ago would pull them out as he considered that the engine was better off getting more air flow without it than the benefit gained by a fast warmup. Note that this was in Albury Australia where it would almost never get below freezing in winter and would often get above 40deg C / 104 F in summer.

I have never had one in any of my three 36hp beetles that I have driven, although I want to get one installed when I finish my 58 resto - more out of curiosity rather than function.

Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:55 pm

Volumex wrote: My mechanic years ago would pull them out as he considered that the engine was better off getting more air flow without it than the benefit gained by a fast warmup. Note that this was in Albury Australia where it would almost never get below freezing in winter and would often get above 40deg C / 104 F in summer.

I have never had one in any of my three 36hp beetles that I have driven, although I want to get one installed when I finish my 58 resto - more out of curiosity rather than function.

Well of course the highly skilled engineers at VW were morons. They of course never considered any climate outside of Germany during the design. If only he had been there to correct this egregious error. VW could have saved quite a bit of money.

Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:09 pm

79SuperVert wrote: Yes, you should put it in if you are trying to recreate the stock setup. It's part of the original design to maintain correct engine operating temps. Without it your engine will take longer to warm up, especially since you live in a part of the country where it is cool much of the year. The airflow is restricted by the ring while the engine is cold, so that it warms up faster. It moves out of the way when the engine is warm.
X2

Don't pay any attention to the detractors, they are just looking for attention.

Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:18 pm

Yes, install it.

I like the way it sounds with the ring installed better too.

Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:20 pm

There's two sides to every argument.

1. Do it right.

2. I'm too lazy to do it right so I'm going to rationalize why I'm doing it wrong.

To be honest, I (for one) am an advocate of both methods depending on what situation I find myself in. You just need to take your pick.

Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:28 pm

Ok, I went the extra mile, I installed it. when looking at it I am saying to myself " I really do not see the benefit of it or how much it can really help."

Thanks for all your hlp guys!

cv

Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:31 pm

Viande wrote: Well of course the highly skilled engineers at VW were morons. They of course never considered any climate outside of Germany during the design. If only he had been there to correct this egregious error. VW could have saved quite a bit of money.
Settle petal. It is possible that someone can have a different opinion to you and not be an idiot. Welcome to the internet.

The question was is it necessary to have a thermostat. From what I have experienced driving cars successfully for many years without them is IT IS NOT NECESSARY. The engine will still run for years. However, as has been pointed out by everyone else, it is a good idea as warming up quickly will reduce wear.

The cooling system has to accomodate ambient temperatures from the coldest region to the hottest where the car will be sold. Compromises have to be made. The inlet pre-heat pipe is a total waste of time here, as it never gets cold enough for carburettor ice to form. Only a moron would make two different types of inlet manifold, so the entire world gets pre-heating even though it is not necessary for some areas (and it is more efficient without it).

Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:45 pm

As someone who lives in AZ, I can say the warm-up gear and a clear preheat tube is 100% necessary in the winter. Yes, it doesn't get below freezing but I can feel a noticeable difference even at 50F. Without those items in place, my engine stalls out at stop signs while it is trying to warm up (electric choke adjusted correctly) or I have to keep the choke on for way too long (manual choke).

I drive in all weather and temperatures so if you only drive when it's sunny out and in the middle of the day or if you like to run your idle RPMs way above factory spec., which masks these issues, this may not apply to you.

Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:34 pm

Volumex wrote: Viande wrote: Well of course the highly skilled engineers at VW were morons. They of course never considered any climate outside of Germany during the design. If only he had been there to correct this egregious error. VW could have saved quite a bit of money.
Settle petal. It is possible that someone can have a different opinion to you and not be an idiot. Welcome to the internet.

The question was is it necessary to have a thermostat. From what I have experienced driving cars successfully for many years without them is IT IS NOT NECESSARY. The engine will still run for years. However, as has been pointed out by everyone else, it is a good idea as warming up quickly will reduce wear.

The cooling system has to accomodate ambient temperatures from the coldest region to the hottest where the car will be sold. Compromises have to be made. The inlet pre-heat pipe is a total waste of time here, as it never gets cold enough for carburettor ice to form. Only a moron would make two different types of inlet manifold, so the entire world gets pre-heating even though it is not necessary for some areas (and it is more efficient without it).

LOL, I was not hostile, It was meant to be funny but I guess I should have placed a disclaimer. :wink:

Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:37 am

Yes you can put it back, and you did, keep an eye on it. If the ring fails, and they can, it will overheat your engine.

They are as per Drscope the needed part. But there is another way to look at it. Start your engine and let it idle for two to three min. I have driven air cooled in temps most of you could only imagine (try 20 below with a 6 volt ) and have never, I repete that I never had issue with engine life or performance.(based on 39 years of driving VW's) Yes it takes a few more min. to warm up, but all my engines have an oil pressure gauge. The point where the engine attains operating temp. is about 6 miles at 55 mph. When it is really cold about 15 miles. Syn. oil has changed the wear patteren of the old oil days, cold start wear is not the issue it was.

I would'nt lose sleep over the ring. UNTILL IT FAILS :twisted:

Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:41 am

Glad to hear that you put it on. My philosophy is if it came that way, keep it that way, especially if it does no harm. I just finished up redoing my 36 hp in preparation of a Judson installation and I found it very interesting to look at, understand, and make sure that this simple installation works correctly. It's just fun to see and make this old, simple technology continue to work. Prior to the Judson, I ran the ring working for 4000 miles with no issues and that included the Okrasa style cooling coil that I had Steph make for me so that it would fit in and accommodate the movement of the ring. I will be reinstalling this setup with the Judson.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:55 am

Pardon my ignorance but I never saw that cooling coil before. Fascinating little piece of work. What exactly does it cool?

Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:15 am

That's a nice bit of work. I've always liked the notion of the extra oil cooling, but the throttle rings always had to come off with those coils. Never occurred to me that you could just set it a little further forward like that. Well done--how's it working out?

Pharquarx wrote: Glad to hear that you put it on. My philosophy is if it came that way, keep it that way, especially if it does no harm. I just finished up redoing my 36 hp in preparation of a Judson installation and I found it very interesting to look at, understand, and make sure that this simple installation works correctly. It's just fun to see and make this old, simple technology continue to work. Prior to the Judson, I ran the ring working for 4000 miles with no issues and that included the Okrasa style cooling coil that I had Steph make for me so that it would fit in and accommodate the movement of the ring. I will be reinstalling this setup with the Judson.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:18 am

A slip stream of oil is taken off at the pressure switch, run through a Fram Oil Filter. From the filter, the oil travels through the coil, which provides additional surface area to cool the oil and then is routed back to the engine via a hollow bolt at the distributor hold down. Photo of the engine is attached for a little different perspective.

I ordered a new setup from Steph, I wanted longer flex hoses to give me a little more to maneuver with with the Judson going in. I will probably offer the old setup (not including the Fram filter) in the classified over the next week.

Also, I really like the Central Jersey Garage Space. I reference the photos of Nelson Roger's 67 Vert all of the time for details.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:24 am

Bezzer wrote: Yes you can put it back, and you did, keep an eye on it. If the ring fails, and they can, it will overheat your engine.
If it fails, it fails open so how would that overheat your engine?

Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:35 am

I'd have to look in the manual to verify, but as I recall the thermostat in a 36 horse engine closes fully at 89 degrees F. I may be a little off in the number (it's a thick manual and it's been a while since I read that particular bit), but it's something very close to that.

It's a number that stuck in my head because I thought everyone who thought removing the thermostat and its associated ring/louvres was as dumb as a box of hair. After reading that I realized that if you're in a climate that rarely sees anything cooler than that (here for instance) the chance of the engine overheating due to failure of some part of that system outweighed the benefit gained by keeping it in place (the two-three days per year it gets cool enough to make any difference).

There are two sides to every argument indeed... If there is ever a debate between two rational parties, then neither is perfectly correct.

That said, I keep it in place and maintain things as well as humanly possible to mitigate risk.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:35 am

Pharquarx wrote: Also, I really like the Central Jersey Garage Space. I reference the photos of Nelson Roger's 67 Vert all of the time for details.

That is a nice section of the site. Hope Jeffrey (our club prez) sees your comment. Thanks.