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Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:53 pm

I was thinking about running without shocks. My 70 baja is off road only. I mostly run rough trails and climbing. I rarely even get into 2nd gear. Has anyone ran without shocks in this type of situation? Pro's and Con's please.

Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:01 pm

Why you want to run with out shocks?

I think on your front end you will bust lot of things at full droop? with no shocks

Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:01 pm

Bouncy :twisted:

Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:14 pm

Because so far, I haven't had any luck with using them. I had cheap coil overs on the front and they pulled off the stud at the bottom. They must be to short. The rear coils overs have already blown a seal. I don't think I want coil overs, but I'm afraid of buying shocks that aren't the right travel range.
I posted a thread asking about it, but it highjacked by manx guys. KYB's were suggested by one person.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:45 am

I would definately keep shocks on the front.

I had a similar problem to you on a f/glass buggy I built some years ago.
As a test, I took the front shocks off and drove the car at my parents sloping driveway - hard in 2nd gear. The bounce was crazy!

Once I had calmed down the shocks went straight back on!

I still don't understand how the sandrail guys can get away with no shocks, must be an exciting ride :shock:

Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:25 am

sloboatnova wrote: I mostly run rough trails and climbing. I rarely even get into 2nd gear. .

if i remember, you have a cut and turned front beam. instead of not running shocks, you might think more about suspension limit straps or hooks to keep the suspension from maxing out and smashing down when you lift a wheel rock climbing, then i would also look for a shock, maybe even a pickup (like a f150), that would not be pulling apart when the suspension is at a full drop.

find a Rancho dealer that will let you try different combos and put a sticker on your car and advertise for them. tell them there are lots of offroad vudders that are looking for new technology.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:52 am

First, Stay away from the POS coil over shocks. They are copied from suspensions that the coil spring is the only suspension spring like a QA1 style coil over shock used on a motorcycle, formula Vee racecar, mid-engine sand rail where no other spring holds the vehicle up.

You already have springs in the suspension, torsion bars. When you incorporate a second spring into a suspension, it screws with the harmonics of the OG spring. Use the OG spring to get the height with adjusting the rear, installing adjusters in the front or buy stiffer torsions if the stock units are not enough spring rate for your needs.

Second, shocks are not desinged to be suspension limiters. You need to install limit straps of fixed metal limits on your suspension like hooks, ledges, blocks and so forth.

A shock is just to dampen the movement, not to increase the movement (coils) or restrict the movement limits.

Usually a non gas-charged oil only shock works very well on a stockish VW.

But, take them off and try it out so you can see for yourself. JUST use a great amount of caution if traveling on any highway because the car can become uncontrolable and cause you to wreck of hurt someone else.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:36 am

I was looking at limit straps last night. I could not find any pictures of the hardward that would attached the strap to the top area of the shock. It appears the bottom bracket just goes on the shock stud before the shock goes on, right?

Thanks

Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:04 am

Anytime things are changed from stock, additional fabrication may be needed. Such as the case for limit straps.

Here are some gallery pictures:

Notice in this next picture the coil over shocks. This suspension is set up using the coil over as sole source suspension springs. The normal torsion housing has the torsion springs removed and threw rods installed instead rendering the torsion spring not being used. It is using the limit strap as a extension limit, but notice the bump stop installed to stop the compressed limits too.

Some of these are mounted to tubing frames, but I think you can get the jist of the idea.

Also, over time the straps stretch. No need to buy new, just disconnect one end and put a few twists in them to take up the distance and establish the limits again.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:03 am

joescoolcustoms wrote:

Second, shocks are not desinged to be suspension limiters. You need to install limit straps of fixed metal limits on your suspension like hooks, ledges, blocks and so forth.

A shock is just to dampen the movement, not to increase the movement (coils) or restrict the movement limits.

All the above....

Also about limit straps.... Length is critical and there is some stretch involved.... Choose length wisely...... A mount system I have see here for upper mount (can't find graphic) is to use length of threaded rod with adjusting nuts through a sleeve welded to frame/chassis and it give infinite adjustment to "droop" when setting up limit straps.... Makes selecting exact length of limit strap less critical....

Dale

Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:07 am

Hook stops are another alternative for the front. They will also limit upward travel and help save ball joints:

Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:10 am

Chad1376 wrote: Hook stops are another alternative for the front. They will also limit upward travel and help save ball joints:

Nice looking beam with Thing spindles, welded shock tower seams, adjusters and additional bracing in the rear of the towers. (also the hooks). Well set up for offroading a BJ front end.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:31 am

This is all very helpful. Thanks

I will began figuring out what method I will use to limit travel.
With the car on jacks stands in the front, will the suspension drop all the way to the max of the balljoints? If not, how do I find that point to know the length of the straps?

Hey chad, how did you figure out where to measure placement for the stop and the hooks.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:37 am

sloboatnova wrote: This is all very helpful. Thanks

I will began figuring out what method I will use to limit travel.
With the car on jacks stands in the front, will the suspension drop all the way to the max of the balljoints? If not, how do I find that point to know the length of the straps?

Hey chad, how did you figure out where to measure placement for the stop and the hooks.

Without the shocks, jacked up, the trailing arms will fall to BJ bind. I suggest backing off that lowest point with limits so as not to overstress the BJ's.

You can find this bottom point, back off and then weld the hooks like Chad has installed on his beam. He has done a very nice job prepping his beam for off-roading.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:45 am

After determining where the pin should be located, I did a trial assembly arms and spindles, without torsion leaves, so I could easily swing the trailing arms from limit to limit. The hooks were tacked on, leaving about an extra 1/4 of travel before the ball joint limit. Then I dis-assembled and fully welded everything.

You'll need to drill a hole for the pin through both sides of the shock tower and locate it so the hooks engage it with the most surface contact possible. I've seen people install a gusset on the pin for additional strength, but I got lazy.

You might be able to do this with the beam installed, but it's going to be a lot easier with it out of the car. If you've been beating up your ball joints, it would probably be a good time to replace them and give the whole beam a once-over.

..another item. You'll still need to check the shock limits to be sure they have some play on both upper and lower limits. I had add a few washers to shim the top shock bushings to be sure the hook stops set the limits, and not the shocks.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:01 am

can I say that if the problem is really that you need to limit travel then that must be one hell of a ride. If you are traveling at the limit of your suspension you would be crazy to not run shocks.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:48 am

I haven't run front shocks in a few years, but that is on a rail which has hardly any weight on the front.

I will warn you though, you DO need to limit downward travel. I put limit straps on mine (bolted in the shock location). Before I put straps on, I had an incident pulling off the trailer (long story) but I ended up with the front tire swinging all the way down and around so the trailing arms were in front of the beam, and the tire was laying flat on the ground (lug nuts in the dirt). You can imagine what my tie rod looked like.

So try it without front shocks. You may like it, just make sure you are limiting down travel.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:00 am

What are the chances of the straps getting caught by the tire?

Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:02 am

None? How often do your tires hit your shocks?

The straps are beefy anyway, I can't see really tearing one up.

Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:22 am

I went from the pos coilovers to kyb gr-2's in the front, and it is night and day. It used to ride like a dump-truck. Now it is smooth. You should still limit your travel regardless if you go with shocks or not. Replacing ball joints is no fun.

I also went with gr-2's in the rear, but wish I went with the gas-a-just. It is a bit too soft currently.

Good luck