TheSamba.com :: View topic - I'm at the end of my rope with this engine!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:22 pm

O.k. so I have finally given in to the fact that I am just not smart enough to figure out what is going on with this car despite what Mr. Haynes, Bentley, and Muir have contributed to the conversation.

I recently swapped the bottom end of my 1600 for a 1640. Everything came over to the new engine fine except for the distributor which is about 45 degrees counter-clockwise from where it should be. I asked the guy who built the motor, a friend, and he said it was that way for him as well and it ran fine.

At any rate, to date, I have changed the coil, condenser, plugs, wires, and points. I have juice to the coil, juice to the points, the condenser works, juice to the distributor, and juice to the plugs. I have checked and rechecked for TDC in Cylinder 1 and static timed the engine. My carb is rebuilt, not leaking (air or fuel) my manifold is in good shape and I know I have fuel to the cylinders as well.

When I turn the key, I press the gas once fully to the floor and hold it, and the car acts like it is stumbling - trying to start - but never really fires. Eventually, but fairly quick, it quits stumbling and acts like there is no spark. When I check the plugs, I surmise by the fuel on them that the engine is flooded.

I only have two suspicions left . . .either my compression (as I havent checked this yet) is Waaaaaaay low (which I don't suspect because it would have to be next to nothing for the engine to not fire at all) OR my distributor is 180 off so that I have spark going to the cylinder on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke.

Any Ideas . . .I am nearly ready to fix it with my shotgun or a big hammer.

Thanks!

Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:33 pm

mschulze wrote: Everything came over to the new engine fine except for the distributor which is about 45 degrees counter-clockwise from where it should be. I asked the guy who built the motor, a friend, and he said it was that way for him as well and it ran fine.
Thanks!

I'm assuming that the green distributor wire is hooked up to coil negative terminal #1, and the ignition wire, wire to electromagnetic pilot jet and choke heater on carb (and back up lights) are hooked up to the positive #15 terminal on the coil.

I think the "friend" had his distributor drive gear off, so where it was for him is irrelevant.

I'm assuming that you know about these engines. Set the crankshaft pulley to TDC for #1 cylinder (line up the pulley mark with the engine seam, and pull off the valve covers to make sure that it's on #1 and not on #3; when #1 TDC, small turning of crankshaft pulley will make #3 valves actuate, while #1 valves will not). At #1 TDC make sure that the rotor is under the wire that goes to cylinder #1 (passenger side, front of VW). Then rotate the crankshaft pulley backwards (counterclockwise) one half-turn (180 degrees) to get to #2 TDC, make sure the rotor is under the spark plug wire that goes to #2 (passenger side, rear of VW). Repeat for #3 and #4.

Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:38 pm

If you think it's flooding.. try unhooking the fuel line from the fuel pump, then try to give it a start. If it doesn't try to start, keep trying until you know you have run the fuel out of the line/carb and try using some starting fluid to see if that fires it over. If it fires over with the starting fluid, you have a carb problem.

Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:38 pm

It sounds like the timing is off. What type of distributor do you have?

Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:41 pm

mschulze wrote: O.k. so I have finally given in to the fact that I am just not smart enough to figure out what is going on with this car despite what Mr. Haynes, Bentley, and Muir have contributed to the conversation.

I recently swapped the bottom end of my 1600 for a 1640. Everything came over to the new engine fine except for the distributor which is about 45 degrees counter-clockwise from where it should be. I asked the guy who built the motor, a friend, and he said it was that way for him as well and it ran fine.

At any rate, to date, I have changed the coil, condenser, plugs, wires, and points. I have juice to the coil, juice to the points, the condenser works, juice to the distributor, and juice to the plugs. I have checked and rechecked for TDC in Cylinder 1 and static timed the engine. My carb is rebuilt, not leaking (air or fuel) my manifold is in good shape and I know I have fuel to the cylinders as well.

When I turn the key, I press the gas once fully to the floor and hold it, and the car acts like it is stumbling - trying to start - but never really fires. Eventually, but fairly quick, it quits stumbling and acts like there is no spark. When I check the plugs, I surmise by the fuel on them that the engine is flooded.

I only have two suspicions left . . .either my compression (as I havent checked this yet) is Waaaaaaay low (which I don't suspect because it would have to be next to nothing for the engine to not fire at all) OR my distributor is 180 off so that I have spark going to the cylinder on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke.

Any Ideas . . .I am nearly ready to fix it with my shotgun or a big hammer.

Thanks!

With the distributor 45 degree out, did you jump all the wires to compensate? Essentially moving #1 to an adjacent terminal and rotating the dist?? You don't always need to move a wire but sometimes with a vacuum advance you can't get the rotation.
you could also pull the dist gear and reinstall it properly, easy to do.

Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:51 pm

Cusser wrote: I'm assuming that the green distributor wire is hooked up to coil negative terminal #1, and the ignition wire, wire to electromagnetic pilot jet and choke heater on carb (and back up lights) are hooked up to the positive #15 terminal on the coil.

Yes

Cusser wrote: I think the "friend" had his distributor drive gear off, so where it was for him is irrelevant.

This was my thought as well $%@!. . .which is why I have disregarded typical alignment in regard to the distributor.

Cusser wrote: I'm assuming that you know about these engines. Set the crankshaft pulley to TDC for #1 cylinder (line up the pulley mark with the engine seam, and pull off the valve covers to make sure that it's on #1 and not on #3; when #1 TDC, small turning of crankshaft pulley will make #3 valves actuate, while #1 valves will not). At #1 TDC make sure that the rotor is under the wire that goes to cylinder #1 (passenger side, front of VW). Then rotate the crankshaft pulley backwards (counterclockwise) one half-turn (180 degrees) to get to #2 TDC, make sure the rotor is under the spark plug wire that goes to #2 (passenger side, rear of VW). Repeat for #3 and #4.

Thanks. I have not double checked the valve operation in regard to what I think is TDC - oops - good check to do. This was my thought as well in regard to the Distributor being 180 degrees off from where it needs to be - or put another way, that it should be at 90 degrees clockwise from its "normal" position. In regard to spark and pulley operation, I am sparking at the correct wires at the correct pulley marks as far as what should be TDC and BDC ( 1 for 1, 2 for 2 etc . . .) If the dist. is 180 degrees off that would mean #1 was getting spark on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression correct?

sturgeongeneral wrote: It sounds like the timing is off. What type of distributor do you have?

Its a stock vacuum advance with the everything hooked up the way it should be.

Thanks guys. I will check the valve operation tonight and see what story that tells.

Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:53 pm

Let's back up to carbureted engine basics 101. If you try to start a cold carbureted engine you depress the accelerator once or twice and release then operate the starter. If you hold the pedal fully to the floor the choke pull off will pull the choke off and the engine stumbles and probably failes to start. Try 1 - 2 pumps, foot OFF the accelerator and crank. Assuming the spark plug wires are in the correct place and order and the plugs aren't fouled it should start if you are getting fuel.

Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:56 am

It sorta sounds like the float maybe sticking.

IF you have timed the motor to #1 and set the distributor it should be fine... unless you have #2 and #4 wires 180* out

Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:12 pm

It sounds like the wires on the distributor are not in the place or order, and most likely due to the distributor not being installed in the correct spot.

Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:06 pm

I had to share my forehead-slapping moment . . .

I double checked that I was at TDC by checking the valve movement in cylinder 1 as I turned the engine. I double checked all my wiring, and I re-static timed the engine. - still I was getting nothing. I was stumped. . .

So I say down on the floor of the garage behind the car, opening up a good wiring diagram and began to meticulously re-check EVERYTHING - only to find that my electric choke and oil pressure wires were switched. I changed them over and BINGO!

Thanks for all your help.

Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:33 pm

Don't feel bad brother, I've done that exact thing too.

Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:33 am

At least it was an easy fix!

Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:46 am

mschulze wrote: .............- only to find that my electric choke and oil pressure wires were switched. I changed them over and BINGO!

Thanks for all your help.

Hmm, thanks for sharing, Just a thought, there are always "how to theft proof my car" threads running.
This is an excellent way to prevent it driving away! No one would notice, you don't have to carry car parts in your pockets, super easy to do.
You may have stumbled upon the easiest, simplest solution yet!

Dave