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Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:48 pm

...and it's gonna be MESSY!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

Quote: By MARY CLARE JALONICK
Associated Press Writer

Ethanol Use Grows

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Obama administration says gas stations can start selling fuel with more ethanol - a mixture of up to 15 percent - but it's only recommended for cars and light trucks built since 2007.

Motorists with older vehicles will need to watch what they're pumping or risk damaging their engines with too much corn-based fuel, the Environmental Protection Agency says. The current blend is 10 percent ethanol.

The move means that gas stations, if they choose to sell the fuel, will have to use special pumps and signs to make sure consumers don't fill their vehicles with the wrong fuel. The EPA said it will propose new pump labeling requirements to help consumers figure out which gas to use.

The ethanol industry says the agency should have allowed the higher blend for more vehicles, arguing that testing shows that it is safe. The EPA was more cautious, saying Wednesday that it will wait until more tests are completed in November to approve vehicles manufactured between 2001 and 2006.

The agency said owners of cars and trucks made before that - along with motorcycles, heavy-duty vehicles or non-road engines - will have to wait even longer, if such vehicles are approved at all.

The move, which comes less than a month before November's midterm elections, is politically popular in rural farm areas. But ethanol faces strong opposition from the auto industry, environmentalists, cattle ranchers, food companies and a broad coalition of other groups.

Opponents argue that the increase in production of corn and its diversion into ethanol is making animal feed more expensive, raising prices at the grocery store and tearing up the land. Manufacturers of smaller engines - used in everything from lawn mowers to boats - also oppose increasing the use of the fuel, saying those engines are not designed for the higher concentrations.

The Obama administration has remained supportive of the renewable fuel. EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson said Wednesday that "wherever sound science and the law support steps to allow more homegrown fuels in America's vehicles, this administration takes those steps."

The EPA has said a congressional mandate for increased ethanol use can't be achieved without allowing higher blends. Congress has required refiners to blend 36 billion gallons of biofuels, mostly ethanol, into auto fuel by 2022.

The ethanol industry has maintained that there is sufficient evidence to show that a 15 percent ethanol blend in motor fuel will not harm engine performance. They say increased consumption of the renewable fuel creates new jobs and replaces imported oil.

The industry group Growth Energy petitioned the EPA to raise the blend in March 2009. The decision was initially expected last December but was delayed twice as the agency and the Energy Department completed additional testing.

Growth Energy President Tom Buis called the move a "good first step" and said the fuel could be available for sale as soon as early next year. He urged the agency to quickly approve the blend for older vehicles, saying there is no reason to limit the higher concentration to the newer models.

Critics said the decision could be a frustration to drivers and argued that many retailers will opt not to sell the higher blend because of the expense of adding new pumps and signs.

"We're really going to make the consumers a guinea pig here," said Craig Cox of the Environmental Working Group, an environmental advocacy group that opposes increases in the fuel. "Have we really thought through what it's going to take to distinguish E15 to E10?"

The EPA said the 2007 and newer models eligible for the fuel represent more than a third of current gas consumption and more than 65 million vehicles. The rules would affect only those cars and trucks because they have more durable emissions systems. Ethanol burns hotter than gasoline, causing catalytic converters, which treat engine emissions, to break down faster. The newer vehicles have components in the emissions systems that are better able to adjust to the higher ethanol blends.

Automakers said they were worried the EPA decision would eventually lead to motorists unknowingly filling up their older cars and trucks with E15 and hurting their engines.

The problem could be exacerbated if E15 fuels are cheaper than more conventional blends, prompting owners of older vehicles to use the fuel despite the potential engine problems.

"Anytime you're dividing up model years and having different fuels for different model years, then it risks a misfueling situation and that's a real concern for the longterm success of alternative fuels," said Gloria Bergquist, spokeswoman for Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers.

Since 2000, U.S. automakers have increased production of so-called flex-fuel vehicles, which can run on blends of up to 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. There are currently about 8 million flex-fuel vehicles on the road. Detroit automakers have pledged to make about half of their vehicle production capable of running on E85 by 2012.

The Obama administration's decision to boost the ethanol concentration in gasoline is a victory for the industry as it struggles to hold onto other subsidies. An increased public skepticism of the renewable fuel has caused some lawmakers who have always championed ethanol to divert the money to other priorities. A key tax credit is scheduled to expire at the end of this year, and some in Congress are considering cutting it or doing away with it altogether.

Ethanol producers say expiration of the credits, which are paid to oil companies as an incentive to blend gasoline with ethanol, could mean the loss of almost 40 percent of the industry's plants and tougher times for a domestic fuel that is good for national security.

Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:44 pm

Friggin demo's and their carbon footprint BS. There is additives that nuetralizes ethanol in the fuel. I need to hurry up and get my ish running then convert it to e85 and just embrace the corn fuel again.

Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:11 pm

And on the Mercury, the warranty is voided if I use higher than 10 percent. The article seems to infer these socialists are then going to force older autos of the road by not continually providing the E10. This is why the older I get, the more I dislike government, especially the Federal. Should not say to much, as the Man with come for me... 8-[ :lol:

Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:16 pm

Ethanol keeps things CLEAN. My Benz runs like nobody's business on the 50% available at my biofuels dealer. It has a higher octane rating than premium and costs less than regular.

Localjoy just likes to piss and moan. :roll: Let's just ignore the fact that the article says they "CAN" start selling it. Right, Loco? :roll:

Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:15 pm

Stupid political BS aside.....

Like said, it only says they "can", then on top of that anything more than 10 percent needs to be from a special pump that is also clearly labeled.

Unless you're an idiot, you won't be accidentally pumping this into your car.

From someone that purposly runs extra Ethanol in my cars I can back up that it does wonders for cleaning out the system (my 94 Silverado's rough idle went away after I added one gallon of E85 to a fillup and ran the tank out).

Ethanol is NOT a bad thing, believe it or not.

Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:28 pm

The gas mileage on my car already drops 8.5% on E10. E15 can suck it.

Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:28 pm

Tram wrote: Ethanol keeps things CLEAN. My Benz runs like nobody's business on the 50% available at my biofuels dealer. It has a higher octane rating than premium and costs less than regular.

Localjoy just likes to piss and moan. :roll: Let's just ignore the fact that the article says they "CAN" start selling it. Right, Loco? :roll:

Trouble is, it also eats the rubber in non designed autos. The Squarback is fine as there are no old rubber parts that come into contact with the fuel. The fuel lines and fuel pump are new and approved.

Well, knowing what I know, they will start it, then get you comfortable, then hit hard, such as switching entirely to E15.

Guess if this happened, I just move the Squareback to daily, and really pee on their parade of papers. :lol: It run with less pollution, so be able to pass the new restrictive smog laws. <tease> :wink: :lol:

Oh, and I though you said that running E85 caused it not to be as peppy. I did take your suggestion and up the compression. :wink:

Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:53 pm

Fusillade wrote: The gas mileage on my car already drops 8.5% on E10. E15 can suck it.

Then why do I still get 30-35 mpg on my 69 fastback.
All I run in any of my cars is E10. No problems with it.
Yes, it does clean the system.
Oh, and the new E15, will be a "blender pump". You select what you want. But the stations have to invest in the new technologies.

Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:04 pm

the ethanol eats gas cap gaskets and fuel line...i have found no problems running bugs on ethanol other than the rubber components failing over time

Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:09 pm

Russ Wolfe wrote: Fusillade wrote: The gas mileage on my car already drops 8.5% on E10. E15 can suck it.

Then why do I still get 30-35 mpg on my 69 fastback.
All I run in any of my cars is E10. No problems with it.
Yes, it does clean the system.
Oh, and the new E15, will be a "blender pump". You select what you want. But the stations have to invest in the new technologies.

The way I read it the first time was they were not blender pumps, but full switch over. Now reading it a second time, I see that they are saying that they have to train drivers, I take it to train them how to use the pumps. Russ, we had a long discussion about blender pumps, and you made me exited about them: run the blend that works best. I set up the Squareback to run an ethanol blend, so I sit on both sides, but more towards the ethanol, even if the E.P.A. has to get into it. Not much incentive for big business to switch.

Russ, as to mileage, you set yours up to get better mileage, so... If not set up, or not able to handle the switch, it will decrease mileage some. In this case, I would think it is the ethanol cleaning the system, and starting to clog the fuel filter. Less gasoline means less efficiency, which means worse mileage. Also, if the fuel is more wet than it should be, this will also damage the paper in the fuel filter. For kicks and giggles, why not change the fuel filter, and go to a different station, especially one of the higher quality ones with newer tanks. Old tanks can leak, which means that moister can get in.

Thank you Mark for starting such a good dialog. Going to bed now, and will rest easy knowing most likely it will all be fine. It is getting late... :sleeping:

Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:47 pm

I buy most of my gas from stations that have tanks less than 20 years old, and most stations now have the new fiberglass tanks. EPA has seen to that.
I used to work for a fuel filter/fuel system components manufacturer. Ethanol does not hurt fuel filters, or rubber gas lines. All modern fuel system components are severely tested to stand up to ALL types of fuels, and fuel additives.
Now I am not talking about fuel hose from 40 year old cars, or questionable hose suppliers.

Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:07 pm

Ethanol mixed with gasoline is the stupidest idea for fuels. We aren't going to have anything to eat soon nuff'.

I prefer gasoline, E anthing sucks. I do run E85 in my bug though.

Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:38 am

And for those of use that can't burn it in our older cars, we still have the pleasure of paying for it in the form of government subsidies of the corn farmers.

Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:50 am

There is so much corn available that it's ridiculous. Farmers are still paid subsidies to grow as much as they can, the gov pays for what they can't sell.

i.e. we still have an over abundance of corn avaliable to us, and we just keep growing more of it every year.

Corn is in EVERYTHING. People have been led to believe that making ethanol out of corn is going to eat up our corn resources, but the plain truth is that it is not. We still grow way more than we need, and we have a lot more land to grow more if needed as well. The percentage of the U.S. corn crop that goes to ethanol production is miniscule. The nation wouldn't be making the move to have every gasoline 10% ethanol and now the option of 15% ethanol if it were some sort of "risk" that we were going to run out of the stuff.

Think about it: We're burnin it up we have so much avaliable to us.

If you're replaced your fuel lines in the last 5 years and don't have a rusty-crusty fuel tank you aren't going to have any trouble with it. The fuel mileage loss is minimal, not enough to cry foul over.

And think of it this way, 10-15% less of my money going overseas. I'm good with that.

Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:13 am

Russ Wolfe wrote: Fusillade wrote: The gas mileage on my car already drops 8.5% on E10. E15 can suck it.

Then why do I still get 30-35 mpg on my 69 fastback.
All I run in any of my cars is E10. No problems with it.
Yes, it does clean the system.
Oh, and the new E15, will be a "blender pump". You select what you want. But the stations have to invest in the new technologies.

I don't know why you get better gas mileage in your 69 fastback; however, it still doesn't change the fact that I get worse gas mileage in my 2007 Honda Accord EX-L V6.

I drive an average of 460 miles per week. I use an average of 18 gallons of E10 per week where I use about 16.4 gallons of regular gas. My gas mileage is reduced and my driving habits don't change just because I have a different mix of fuel in the tank.

Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:42 am

zozo wrote: And for those of use that can't burn it in our older cars, we still have the pleasure of paying for it in the form of government subsidies of the corn farmers.

THAT'S why it's being added to gas- it has nothing to do with a green political "agenda" by the Democrats.

Both parties are responsible for subsidies. That is why corn is in Everything.

Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:44 am

Eaallred wrote:
Corn is in EVERYTHING. People have been led to believe that making ethanol out of corn is going to eat up our corn resources,

Maybe because the price of corn (and everything touching or containing corn) went up as soon as Ethanol started being produced?

Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:17 am

personally, i really don't care about the loss of MPG, and i've switched my fuel lines over to that blue wrapped silicone looking stuff (i always forget the name of that stuff), and its resistant to pretty much everything, and costs around $7-8 a foot.

My main concern, is if it affects the life of the motor. From what i've heard, this ethonal is more "dry" and doesn't lubricate as well as pure gasoline, and can cause things like valves, and rings to wear out prematurely. So i gues my question is, what mods, if any should we be doing to our motors to be able to use E10/15/etc gasoline? lower CR, higher CR, fuel additives (seafoam, marvel, sulfur?), different material in valves or guides (i.e. platinum, stainless steel, etc.).

Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:28 am

I work for a farmers co-op, this is good for our business and farmers, but my thought is why use corn?

We eat corn, grits, cerials made from corn, livestock uses corn
as a staple feed, the cost goes up, so does our food prices.

There are other things that ethanol can be made from that we dont eat, saw grass, other grains, leaves, sawdust,etc.

I say, keep Corn for 2 things, eatin' and drinking (corn ethanol)
Corn squeezin's taste better for drinkin' not putting in your gas tanks!
Corn is 51% of your Kentucky Burbon!!

And, from my recent discovery of a rusty gas tank, Ethanol tends to attract water, thus can speed up the rust in our old VW gas tanks, and clean it does, a lot of injector cleaners are alcohol of some form.
Seems gas & alcohol can be slightly corrosive (ive heard)
which is the reason it eats' fuel pump gaskets and diaphrams in the carb, etc.

Now, if the auto industrys can make us ethanol approved parts for old cars, there may be some 'new' business.

Let's hope a workable solution comes soon, i want to afford to eat drink and drive my old cars without going broke just getting a tank of real gas!

Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:45 am

Eaallred wrote: There is so much corn available that it's ridiculous. Farmers are still paid subsidies to grow as much as they can, the gov pays for what they can't sell.

i.e. we still have an over abundance of corn avaliable to us, and we just keep growing more of it every year.

Corn is in EVERYTHING. People have been led to believe that making ethanol out of corn is going to eat up our corn resources, but the plain truth is that it is not. We still grow way more than we need, and we have a lot more land to grow more if needed as well. The percentage of the U.S. corn crop that goes to ethanol production is miniscule. The nation wouldn't be making the move to have every gasoline 10% ethanol and now the option of 15% ethanol if it were some sort of "risk" that we were going to run out of the stuff.

Think about it: We're burnin it up we have so much avaliable to us.

If you're replaced your fuel lines in the last 5 years and don't have a rusty-crusty fuel tank you aren't going to have any trouble with it. The fuel mileage loss is minimal, not enough to cry foul over.

And think of it this way, 10-15% less of my money going overseas. I'm good with that.

I'll agree with you on everything but your last statement about 10-15% less going oversees

In order to make E10 E15 and E85, out of corn, it takes so much electricity that the numbers really do not make sense. Neither does the added pollution, as huge amounts of coal and oil go into this process, much of it coming from overseas. Literally using more energy to create a fuel with less energy

things off the top of my head that people don't think about
fuel for the tractors on the farmers land to grow the corn
Fuel for the semi truck hauling the corn to be processed
Fuel for the truck distributing the Ethonal
Fuel used in the process of making, and distributing the fertalizers, and insecticides needed
Fuel to heat the mash to make the actual ethenol

I understand that we have to do something to sustain our own oil needs but I dont think this is the way...