TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1600 Dual Port internal pics

Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:35 pm

Oh wise folks of TS.

I've got a 1600 DP with a nasty knock. I broke it down, found that the rod bearing on #4 is not there anymore (found it in a million pieces all over). It looks like the main bearings and cam bearings are very pitted.

I am planning on line boring the case, and getting a kit from cip1: <link>http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5000</link>

Anything else that I should consider? Opinions? Thank you!

Knock:

Con rod bearing:

Pics:

Thanks all! I've posted some of this in the late beetle forum, but I was hoping to get some opinions here regarding next steps for this engine.

-Ben

Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:46 pm

Clean everything like you have OCD. I would take the crank and rods to the machine shop along with the case too if you are not going to get new ones.

Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:46 pm

So are you going for the new crank, cam and oil pump as they suggest in their ad? Get everything balanced. Get the case tapped for full flow oiling. Are you going stock or hop it up a little?

Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:02 pm

Clean the crank? naw
From the looks of the video you musta had the radio turned up!
That is bad, crank most likely will be worn too far to regrind. Old crank can be used as door stop.
Same goes for that rod. It is scrap now. The other three rods are useful as cores.
A reground crank and rebuilt rods are in your future, don't worry it's not real expensive, maybe 200$.
But do pull the gears off the crank, they may still be good!

I would be most concerned with the case.
You should check the deck surface, lifter bores, line bore, thrust bearing srea, studs, and case parting surfaces. If the case is still good that's great! But don't count your chickens......... that bearing failed for a reason.
If you aren't real framiliar with vw engine cases maybe take it to a vw shop and have them check it out closely, heck tell em' it's a race engine that'll make em pay attention! Good used cases are more rare all the time ya know.

Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:45 pm

Jeebus, it looks like the rod end cap on that one cylinder is about to come completely off! :shock:

Crank's trash, no doubt. :cry:

Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:34 am

Thanks for the advice. This motor was only run by me once or twice for a few seconds, but it looks like somebody did beat the living @^(*% out of it when that bearing let go. Overall, the condition of the motor *looks* good other than that.

@hottarod: OCD cleaning, check. I've got solvents, gloves, and some big plastic buckets.

@DarthWeber: I'll probably replace the crank, depending on what the machine shop says. Can I use a digital mic to check the crank for out-of-round, etc? Should I use a feeler gauge to measure the side of rod to crank clearance?

@modok: I'll have the case line bored (because who knows how the bearings beat it up, right? and I'll have them check all of those things as well. If they are going to do all that, I may have them cut it for (slightly) larger pistons as well. I think I'll stay stock though. I will have them tap for full flow though, and I will get a new oil pump because the one that was on it has that oil filter attachment thingy.

For all - I'm located in Sacramento. I will send out to rimco or brothers if I have to, but I would rather support a local business if anyone can suggest one.

Thanks all!

(here is the bug in question, in the garage hanging out with the notch)

-Ben

Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:44 am

Someone had a post not too long ago about machine shops in the Sacto area, you might want to do a quick search. I wouldn't worry about measuring anything until you have the maching shop look at your parts. Yes, you are correct to want to measure the crank journals and rod side clearance and like that when you get the parts back from the machine shop. Even on a stock motor, never assume everything is correct and will assemble with proper clearances - always measure to double check the machining was done right. I know it's a PITA but if you can't find a machine shop up there, ship it all to Brother's VW Machine down here in Ontario, they'll make sure it's all done up right. I know you were going to use the kit from cip1 but Brothers sells stock rebuild kits too, just so you know.

Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:57 am

is that a watter injector???.I havent seen those since the 80's. get a compleate engine kit.case , heads and everything else.

Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:00 am

mark tucker wrote: is that a watter injector???

That's the most critical part of the flux capacitor.

Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:53 pm

modok wrote:
I would be most concerned with the case.
You should check the deck surface, lifter bores, line bore, thrust bearing srea, studs, and case parting surfaces. If the case is still good that's great! But don't count your chickens......... that bearing failed for a reason.

Well - if the flux capacitor went bad, that would explain the bearing... :wink: I'll look for that machine shop thread. I've been around VWs for years, but this is my first time splitting a case. I'd just rather talk to someone in person if possible!

Just goes to show, regular maintenance is everything. Don't forget the blinker fluid!

-Ben

Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:18 pm

Quote: Just goes to show, regular maintenance is everything. Don't forget the blinker fluid!

Remember to check your muffler bearings too, the german ones are getting harder to find.

Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:58 am

Those old main brg halves make good caster shims.

Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:50 pm

Update 10/25:

Taking the whole shebang to the machine shop tomorrow. For some fun, see the below pics of crank journal and rod for #4

Pick the bad one!

Wow -

And the crank. Probably toast. I'll have them check and press off all the old gears etc to reuse.

-Ben

Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:32 am

Yea, not probably. The crank is completly junk and you need rods too. I wouldnt replace just 1 rod. You can get a new set for about 90 bucks. That bad rod will not be resized and has been VERY hot by looking at the color of it. So it is now also very weak.
Case should be fine. Just clean it up. Unless a main bearing was spun which I dont think one did, it should be good to use again.

Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:22 am

@Taxman -

Yes, I'll definitely be replacing all the rods. I think the bearings did not spin, based on the wear marks and the way that they came out.

You shoulda seen the metallic sludge at the bottom end of the case. Nasty stuff!

Thanks for the help. -Ben

Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:55 am

Floydilian, with all that metallic crap in the oil you may want to consider pulling all the oil galley plugs to give the case a really good cleaning out. I'd also install a new oil cooler and like I mentioned above, drill and tap for full flow as long as you have it at the machine shop.

Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:56 pm

DarthWeber wrote: Floydilian, with all that metallic crap in the oil you may want to consider pulling all the oil galley plugs to give the case a really good cleaning out. I'd also install a new oil cooler and like I mentioned above, drill and tap for full flow as long as you have it at the machine shop.

Thanks Darth. Will do. Dropped it off at the machine shop today -- they are going to give it an initial clean and check it out. If it looks good, then it is plugs out, full flow, line bore. I'll slap a new oil cooler and clean the case again when i get it back.

Question: How much pitting (if any) is acceptable on the lifters? If they are no good, is the cam toast as well? I can go snap some pics if that would help inform the discussion. Thanks to all the helpful advice thus far, I hope a newbie engine build can be a bit instructional for others like me!

-Ben

Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:04 pm

Wipe the face of a few lifter cleans and put a straight-edge across the face. Hold them up to the light like this, line your eyeball up just right, and see if the face is crowned, flat, or dished.
They start out high in the center.
If they are are low in the middle I'd replace both cam and lifters.

"Micropitting" is ok, it looks rough but it is normal for some cams and gears. A few pits here and there are also ok, but it's the WEAR that's the main thing.

Oh, btw that crank is SO FAR GONE!
Lets guess how much metal it's missing

I say .120"

Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:44 am

Yea, I forgot to mention the cooler being replaced. Too many people try to flush them out and you never get all that junk out and end up hurting the new motor. Good call, I forgot about it.

Sounds like you are doing it right.

Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:15 pm

modok wrote:

Oh, btw that crank is SO FAR GONE!
Lets guess how much metal it's missing

I say .120"

And the answer is ... .150"! The guy at the machine shop said he's never seen so much metal worn without blowing the engine, and that somebody must have run on it like that for a while. Ouch.

Luckily, the case looks OK other than that. It has been line bored to .1 and a .1 oversize thrust bearing (I understand the first but not the second, but I assume those are all #'s that I can provide to whomever I buy the bearings from?)

I'll drop the rest of the stuff off for cleaning next week and so will probably have some more questions then. Thanks all!

-Ben