TheSamba.com :: View topic - emu's engine rebuild

Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:22 am

ashman40 wrote: emu88 wrote: Edit 3: ok this is weird. I followed the brown and white wire from S on the dimmer relay. Tested for power where it went into T3 connector, fine, out of T3 connector, fine, at stalk, fine at 11.6v. With the stalk assembly loose (unscrewed and pulled out a tad) i tried the high beams and lo and behold they work! On, off, on, off. I can only guess that when the stalk assembly is back in place something is not right.
Is there a dedicated ground wire coming off the turn signal switch going to ground? Check the connections.
Also, look at the inner pivot point of the turn signal level. You should see the two brass contacts of the dimmer switch. These should NOT be touching when at rest. When you pull on the lever, these two come together. Either they are always touching, or never touch while the switch is installed.
There is a brown wire from the turn signal switch that runs directly to a cluster of ground terminals near the fuse box. But this is the one (i assume since it it the only brown wire there) that according to the wiring diagram ought to run to the horn directly.
When the assembly is OUT of the column housing, the high beams work every time, on, off, on, off. I can see when i pull the lever the lever itself touches the TOP brass contact only, but this does not touch the bottom brass contact. The high beams work though. Now, when the assembly in pushed back IN to the housing and i pull the lever, nothing happens, yet the same areas make contact. Instead, i can turn the high beams on and off by pressing withmy finger the small plastic tab that sits above the bottom brass contact.

ashman40 wrote: emu88 wrote: Also the blue dash bulb does not come on still - got just over 10v at the bulb holder when the dimmer is pulled on at the stalk but the bulb does not light up. Tried new bulb, still no. Could it be because only 10ish volts??
Clean the wire connections. You should NOT be loosing so much voltage.
Check the ground wire that runs from the body to the speedo body. This ground is needed for the dash lights and upper indicators like the high beam lamp.
The connections are all brand new anyway and the one old one i already thoroughly cleaned. The speedo is grounded via one of the mounting screws where a brown wire leads to that cluster of grounded terminals. Its clean and firm.

ashman40 wrote: emu88 wrote: BRAKE SWITCHES: ok there is always '1' infinite resistane between all the terminals on both brake switches. They're definitely bad then?
#81 and #81a should be connected togerther while the brakes are at rest.
When you press on the brakes, #81 and #82a (the terminals that face each other) should be connected together. Test this with your ohm meter.
Ok, but i did this already with the meter set to 200 ohms, the lowest one. It constantly reads 1 whichever terminals i test between. I know the meter works because i have tested the resistance on other wires to check.

ashman40 wrote: To test the brake switch connectors using a pair of jumper wires.
Jump the #81 and #82a terminals on either connector and the brakes should light up (while ignition is ON). Do the same test on the other connector. Test with BOTH connectors jumpered. This simulates pressing the brakes.
Done this. Both brake lights DO come on each time, when either of the connectors are jumped and also when both are.

ashman40 wrote: Jump the #81 and #81a on one connector while jumping #81 and #82a terminals on the other connector and the brakes should light up and the brake warning light should ALSO light up. This test simulates a failure of one of the switches. Do the same test by swapping the connections to the opposite connectors, and you should get the same result.
Have not done this. Will try it. But i think my warning light bulb is burnt.

Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:18 am

emu88 wrote: There is a brown wire from the turn signal switch that runs directly to a cluster of ground terminals near the fuse box. But this is the one (i assume since it it the only brown wire there) that according to the wiring diagram ought to run to the horn directly.
When the assembly is OUT of the column housing, the high beams work every time, on, off, on, off. I can see when i pull the lever the lever itself touches the TOP brass contact only, but this does not touch the bottom brass contact. The high beams work though. Now, when the assembly in pushed back IN to the housing and i pull the lever, nothing happens, yet the same areas make contact. Instead, i can turn the high beams on and off by pressing withmy finger the small plastic tab that sits above the bottom brass contact.
Here is a pic of an early '70s turn signal switch.

You can see the brass "strips" on the left where the turn signal lever meets up with the body of the switch. The two brass strips sit between the plastic tab on top and the inside of the lever on the bottom. As you pull on the lever the two leaves are sandwiched and make contact. Yours may be slightly different, but the concept is the same.

You can also see the two large brass "ears" on the face of the turn signal switch. These are the contacts that the brass ring on the front side of the turn signal canceling ring rides. These "ears" are wired to the brown wire that comes from the horn. These are how the steering wheel and steering column remain electrically connected to the horn while it rotates.

emu88 wrote: Ok, but i did this already with the meter set to 200 ohms, the lowest one. It constantly reads 1 whichever terminals i test between. I know the meter works because i have tested the resistance on other wires to check.
Sounds like your brake switches are bad, but for BOTH to go bad at the same time is strange.

Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:34 am

HEADLIGHTS
Ahh, good photo thanks. Now an odd thing happened. High beams stopped working. Checked the yellow/black wire coming from ignition barrel and NO power. Then checked the same wire at the ignition barrel end, and 12 volts. Went back to check the first end, and had 12 volts! Stuck the wire back into the connector and the headlights worked again. Something up with the connection at the ignition barrel.

Fiddled with the contacts at the high beam stalk, now they work when the assembly is back in the steering column housing AND the blue light comes on!! Whats going on! Need to pull harder when its in the housing and sometimes it seems to double-click, but it works.

BRAKE LIGHTS/SWITCHES
Yes it is most odd that both switches should fail. Could it be my master cylinder instead that has gone bad?

ENGINE NOT STARTING
Perhaps more important is my engine not starting... Got 12 volts at coil, timing is correct, got strong spark at middle lead and all 4 plugs, got high similar compression on all cylinders, got fuel in pump AND it squirts out from down in the carb throat when i press the throttle. But all it does is crank and crank and crank. What else could it be? The only thing i have changed recently is the fuel pump (correct rod length) because the old one leaked, but it gets fuel to the carb.

Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:18 pm

emu88 wrote: HEADLIGHTS
Ahh, good photo thanks. Now an odd thing happened. High beams stopped working. Checked the yellow/black wire coming from ignition barrel and NO power. Then checked the same wire at the ignition barrel end, and 12 volts. Went back to check the first end, and had 12 volts! Stuck the wire back into the connector and the headlights worked again. Something up with the connection at the ignition barrel.

Fiddled with the contacts at the high beam stalk, now they work when the assembly is back in the steering column housing AND the blue light comes on!! Whats going on! Need to pull harder when its in the housing and sometimes it seems to double-click, but it works.
It really sounds like loose or dirty connectors.
It could also be the contacts inside the ignition switch are going bad. They build up carbon deposits over the years. Sometimes when you jiggle the key you can find a non-carbonized spot and the power comes back.

emu88 wrote: BRAKE LIGHTS/SWITCHES
Yes it is most odd that both switches should fail. Could it be my master cylinder instead that has gone bad?
Brake switches work of pressure form the MC. If your MC is building pressure to properly operate the brakes the switches should work.
You could try bleeding the switches (press down on the pedal and crack loose the switches to bleed some fluid out. This would remove any air trapped at the switches).

emu88 wrote: ENGINE NOT STARTING
Perhaps more important is my engine not starting... Got 12 volts at coil, timing is correct, got strong spark at middle lead and all 4 plugs, got high similar compression on all cylinders, got fuel in pump AND it squirts out from down in the carb throat when i press the throttle. But all it does is crank and crank and crank. What else could it be? The only thing i have changed recently is the fuel pump (correct rod length) because the old one leaked, but it gets fuel to the carb.
Put your voltmeter on the #15 (+) ignition coil lead and watch the voltage as you crank the engine. It may drop a little to around 11v, but it it drops much below 10v there isn't gonna be enough voltage to spark the plugs.
You may also find the voltage drops to 0-volts when cranking. This means you have wired the "X" circuit to the ignition coil instead of the #15 circuit. It operates normally when the ignition is in the ON position, but the X circuit has 0-volts while the ignition key is in the START position.
As a test, run a jumper wire from the (+) battery terminal to the coil #15 (battery jumper cables + small wire can be used).

Your battery voltage seems to drop significantly the farther it is from the fuse box. I'm not sure if this is your battery or dirty/old wiring. A car with good/new wiring should see less than a 1v drop anywhere in the car. Given our cars are much older, a 1.5v drop to 11v is not unusual. But more than that and the circuit needs some attention.

Have you had your battery tested? Voltage is one test but a load test is a better indicator of how strong your battery is.

Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:00 am

Thanks for this, i will try it today. I have only done a voltage test on the battery, how do i do a load test?

ENGINE NOT STARTING
Edit: ok, so i hooked up the voltmeter to #15 on the coil, turned ignition on, but only got 10.6v, and that's without even cranking the engine. Tested the battery and now got only 11.4v there. Is it possibly that all the crnking yesterday drained the battery this much (i did notice the starter begin to spin slower and slower after excessive cranking), or is it likely i have something stuck 'on' that constantly drains power? I have a constant 12v to the 30 terminal on the headlight switch with ignition off, is that right?

HEADLIGHTS
Ok. If it's loose or dirty connections as it may well be, i will remove all the wires under the ignition switch and turn signal stalk, tape up split bits, clean, re-attach and solder connections (somone has previously twisted wires tgether and taped them up). Hopefully this will make everything more solid and constant.

BRAKE LIGHTS/SWITCHES
Right. I have tried cracking loose the front switch but it is so tight, when i pull it flexes the MC. It IS 24mm right? Thats the only spanner i don't have and the sockets i have are too shallow to reach past the terminals.

Horn: can i utilise the brake warning light button for the horn? It doesn't work as the brake warning light anyway, so maybe i could use that temporarily?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:49 am

emu88 wrote: Thanks for this, i will try it today. I have only done a voltage test on the battery, how do i do a load test?

ENGINE NOT STARTING
Edit: ok, so i hooked up the voltmeter to #15 on the coil, turned ignition on, but only got 10.6v, and that's without even cranking the engine. Tested the battery and now got only 11.4v there. Is it possibly that all the crnking yesterday drained the battery this much (i did notice the starter begin to spin slower and slower after excessive cranking), or is it likely i have something stuck 'on' that constantly drains power? I have a constant 12v to the 30 terminal on the headlight switch with ignition off, is that right?
Anything less than 11.8v is a completely drained battery. Charge your battery. 12.6v is fully charged.
Did you confirm if there is voltage at the coil while cranking?

emu88 wrote: HEADLIGHTS
Ok. If it's loose or dirty connections as it may well be, i will remove all the wires under the ignition switch and turn signal stalk, tape up split bits, clean, re-attach and solder connections (somone has previously twisted wires tgether and taped them up). Hopefully this will make everything more solid and constant.
When you replaced the ends of the wires, did you clean the metal or cut/strip the insulation off before crimping the new ends on?

emu88 wrote: Horn: can i utilise the brake warning light button for the horn? It doesn't work as the brake warning light anyway, so maybe i could use that temporarily?
The horn draws a decent amount of current. You couldn't power the horn directly from the switch, but if you added a relay it would work. The switch triggers the relay which powers the horn.

Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:27 am

ENGINE NOT STARTING
Charging my battery now. Before i hooked up the charger, i tested for voltage at the coil when cranking. It dropped down to zero as soon as the engine began cranking, and it cranked slower and slower and slower.
But i have checked and i have 15 from the ignition leading to #11 on the fuse panel and #12 at the fuse panel then running to the coil terminal 15. This matches the diagram so i don't understand how i could have done this wrong?

HEADLIGHTS
When i replaced the wires, i either replaced everything (wire and terminals) for bent, weak and dirty ones, just replaced the terminals, or for ones in good condition, just cleaned up the terminals so they were shiney again. I have soldered a few, but most are just crimped pretty firmly with heat shrink.

Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:17 am

emu88 wrote: ENGINE NOT STARTING
Charging my battery now. Before i hooked up the charger, i tested for voltage at the coil when cranking. It dropped down to zero as soon as the engine began cranking, and it cranked slower and slower and slower.
But i have checked and i have 15 from the ignition leading to #11 on the fuse panel and #12 at the fuse panel then running to the coil terminal 15. This matches the diagram so i don't understand how i could have done this wrong?
This almost sounds like you have the "X" circuit powering the coil. When you finish charging your battery, test the coil again. Also test that fuses #11 & #12 are still powered while cranking. It is possible the wire from the ignition switch to the fuse box is the "X" circuit. You would only notice while cranking.

emu88 wrote: HEADLIGHTS
When i replaced the wires, i either replaced everything (wire and terminals) for bent, weak and dirty ones, just replaced the terminals, or for ones in good condition, just cleaned up the terminals so they were shiney again. I have soldered a few, but most are just crimped pretty firmly with heat shrink.
I was referring to how clean the wires were where you crimped on the connectors. If you pull off old connectors and crimp new connectors over the old oxidized wire ends, you don't have a good connection.

Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:19 am

Ok i will redo the test. One thing though, my battery has recharged, to 12.6, but immediately after, i held the voltmeter to it for a few minutes and it was dropping every 40 seconds or so by 0.01 of a volt. An hour or so later i have gone and looked again and it is now 12.48. This is with the battery isolated not connected to + wire or ground. I have now connected those to see if the same happens.

Oh yes, i stripped down to fresh new wire on all wires i repaired.

Edit: just tested voltage, but not with cranking, and i have the following reading with the battery charged and ignition on:

Fuse #11 and 12: 11.6v
Battery: 12.07v
Coil 15: 10.6v

Hmm, what's wrong. If i swap the X and coil wires round, might that solve it then?

Edit 2: ok, got 12v everywhere now with ignition on. Dunno why. Did the test when cranking and immediately everywhere drops to 0 volts. Coil, fusebox 11 & 12, ignition terminal. So what now!? I have 1 day left :(

Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:36 pm

This is really stumping me. The X black/yellow wire from ignition leads to the X on the headlight switch, and the 15 black wire from ignition leads to fuse #11 on the fuse box. #12 then runs back to 15 on the coil and I get 12 or near 12 volts at each point with ignition ON.

But as soon as I start cranking, zero!

Cranking engine by hand gets me a good spark from coil and at each plug, so i know they and points are fine. Got fuel to carb that is certain. Timing is bang on. It must be a spark issue - BUT ONLY WHEN CRANKING. I heave searched and searched but can't find anything on this issue, even vw-resource stops short of coming to the above described issue.

I have 24 hours before i leave back to Engalnd and I must get the engine running, so please please help people!

Edit: removed the ignition switch and cylinder. The reverse side of the plastic thing with the spade terminals has a crack in the plastic and a loose portion. Could this mean something? How can i clean up the ignition switch?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:42 am

Ahh how embarrasing! I cleaned the ignition switch, and then put the wires back in. Realised then that i had got X and 15 mixed up at the BARREL not the fuse box. Like Ashman said! Fired up first time! Black smoke though, so will replace the plugs with fresh new ones.

Thanks for all your help, finally got it done on the last day. again!

Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:30 am

I plan now to go round and tighten all the nuts and bolts and whatnot since after 6 months since the rebuild some seem to have come a little loose. I'll do another compression test and check the valves again. Got 4 new plugs in. The oil is about 6 months old with light use, worth changing it? It's definately not very black yet (from dipstick) but is uner the engine where it drips. Any other things you think i should do before i leave it for another 6 months?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:01 am

When you charged your battery, how long did you charge it? I would expect that once the charging was done, your battery would have a voltage closer to 13v, if not over.
That the voltage dropped down after charging seems to indicate one of two things...
1) The battery was not fully charged. That you measured 12.6v when your battery was done charging and it typically is much higher due to a "surface charge". Maybe it needed to stay on the charger longer.
2) The battery is bad and can no longer hold a full charge. How old is this battery? How many times has it be drained to the point where it couldn't crank the engine??

Because these engines do NOT have an oil filter and were not designed to the same spec/tolerances as modern engines... you must change the engine oil more frequently. 3-months is the norm. Especially for the new builds.

Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:31 am

ashman40 wrote: When you charged your battery, how long did you charge it? I would expect that once the charging was done, your battery would have a voltage closer to 13v, if not over.
That the voltage dropped down after charging seems to indicate one of two things...
1) The battery was not fully charged. That you measured 12.6v when your battery was done charging and it typically is much higher due to a "surface charge". Maybe it needed to stay on the charger longer.
2) The battery is bad and can no longer hold a full charge. How old is this battery? How many times has it be drained to the point where it couldn't crank the engine??

Because these engines do NOT have an oil filter and were not designed to the same spec/tolerances as modern engines... you must change the engine oil more frequently. 3-months is the norm. Especially for the new builds.

Ok, thanks about the oil. I'll change it tomorrow.

About the battery. I charged it a few days ago leaving it over night. The charger said it was full. Measured it and it had 12.6v. Today i charged it some more since i have been doing a lot of cranking. When i hooked it up the charger said slightly low battery, but within 30 mins it was showing 'full'. WHILST charging it read a little over 13 volts, but once charged and unclamped it reads always 12.6. The battery came with the car but it can be no more than 5 years old i would say since they still sell similar ones of the same Turkish make. It has sat for about 3 weeks before with no use and not on charge, and also on trickle charge for many weeks more.

Now that summer is approaching i want to check the choke. Is there a guide for SUMMER adjustment? (hot here in Turkey). I have only found general instructions.

Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:35 pm

emu88 wrote: The battery came with the car but it can be no more than 5 years old i would say since they still sell similar ones of the same Turkish make. It has sat for about 3 weeks before with no use and not on charge, and also on trickle charge for many weeks more.
Not sure the make/quality of your battery but standard (generic) wet cell/acid batteries have a lifespan of only a few years. 5years is "old" in battery years. Newer gel batteries can last longer. It is possible your battery is on its last legs. Take it somewhere to get it load tested (simulates cranking engine load) and see if it handles it well.

emu88 wrote: Now that summer is approaching i want to check the choke. Is there a guide for SUMMER adjustment? (hot here in Turkey). I have only found general instructions.
The general guidelines will work. As the outside temp warms up, the coil in the choke will expand. So the same setting the caused the choke to be fully closed before the 1st start in winter, will be partially open already in summer time. This means you must close down the choke opening more during the summer months.
You still adjust it the same. Just fully closed while the engine is cold, 1st thing in the morning. Depending how hot it gets in your area, you may need to make multiple adjustments over the summer to keep the choke adjusted.
As the temps get colder again in the fall, you will need to re-adjust or the choke will remain closed longer than you need.

Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:58 am

Thanks Ashman for that. I adjusted the choke roughly for summer and will tell my dad to tweak if necessary.

Now I want to get a new indicator switch outfit because my current one has been repaired and soldered and is intermittent, and also a new ignition switch since with my one I need to wiggle the key sometimes for the oil and gen lights to come on. Also the little plastic insert where the terminals are is cracked slightly. BUT I am a little confused and there a big price differences between the different kinds.

Mine is a 71 1302, but I do not have the 'plastic plug in connector' for the indicator switch wires. Should I get this one:
http://www.machine7.com/product.php?xProd=3008
or this one:
http://www.machine7.com/product.php?xProd=3007

As for the ignition switch, could needing to wobble the key be caused by a crack in the plastic housing where the terminals are? Or would I need a new barrel with new keys to fix that? This plastic bit looks exactly like the one from my bug: http://www.machine7.com/product.php?xProd=3025 but it is for 72-73. Which bits should I get?

And finally, where on earth could I find the ring for my horn that goes between the contacts on the indicator switch and the rear of the steering wheel?!

Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:07 am

ashman40 wrote:
Your '71 should have a steering wheel with the copper ring that remains in contact with the "ears" on the turn signal lever like this one:

The earlier '68-'70 steering wheels used a wired upper steering column bearing like this:

I'm not sure you could use this earlier style bearing on your steering column.

Have you tried to remove the non-copper ring turn cancellation disc from your earlier wheel and replace it with one that has a contact ring from your '71 (like above pic)?
Where can I find the part in the top photo? This is the bottom of my steering wheel that fits onto the steering column. Does the above pictured item slide onto THIS? I don't get how it can..

Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:55 am

Ashman, where are you!?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:43 pm

It appears that you have the wrong horn contact/turn signal cancel ring on your steering wheel. The one you need is this part# 113-415-660a:
http://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/horn-...13415660-a
Here is how it mounts (note the orientation of the cancelling tab):
Turn signal switch side:

Horn button side:

The copper ring rides on "brass ears" as Ashman put it.

Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:44 pm

mrbigmax wrote: It appears that you have the wrong horn contact/turn signal cancel ring on your steering wheel. The one you need is this part# 113-415-660a:
http://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/horn-...13415660-a
Here is how it mounts (note the orientation of the cancelling tab):
Turn signal switch side:

Horn button side:

The copper ring rides on "brass ears" as Ashman put it.
Thanks mrbigmax, I am worried though because that does not look anything like my 71 steering wheel. On the front I do not have the spade terminal at all!

It appears I don't have the contact ring that touches the 'brass ears' AND the other thing that goes in the face of the steering wheel that has the spade terminal. Goddamit! So which turn signal LEVER do I need? (See two posts back).