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tattooed_pariah Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:15 am

I'm not looking for the number specs, I know those are readily available.

I'm curious about the difference while driving a 1776cc with a W110 vs. a W120.

Here's the motor:

DPR 69mm Crank
AA 90.5 P&Cs
Stock rebuilt balanced rods
DP Case drilled for full flow
26mm Schadeck oil pump
external oil filter/cooler (72fin with electric fan)
Lightened flywheel
40x35.5 heads
dual valve springs
Engle lifters
chromoly pushrods
dual 40 Weber IDFs


I currently have a W110, but it will need to be replaced. This isn't a daily driver, it's my project car.

What will I feel as far as difference if I put a 120 in instead of a 110? Will it be more/less torquey? will it have more/less power?

I've tried learning and understanding the various numbers (duration and lift and whatnot), but I have trouble learning from text unless it's very simple. I'm much more of a hands on, see it happen, learner..

pyrOman Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:05 am

tattooed_pariah wrote: I'm curious about the difference while driving a 1776cc with a W110 vs. a W120.

Considering the insignificant difference between a 1776 and an 1835, the 120 was not a happy camper in my 1835 since it had the power band on the very high end of the rpm. The very same 120 cam provided a very wide power band throughout the rpm range in the 2276 though. :P

The 100 cam running in the Bug's 1600 also provides a fairly wide range there. I don't have any "numbers" since I only Etch-A-Sketch my engines. This is simply my personal experience. 8)

OLD VW NUT Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:46 am

The more advance you dial into the valve train the higher up you move the torque curve - and thats what gets your car going. Driving a 1776 around town with a W110 cam would be ok - the W120 not so much.

Driving an over-cammed motor is no fun - driving an under-cammed motor can be rather unexciting but it will be more drivable. I've built a few over-cammed small displacement motors in my life - I'd never do it again.

Unless you have a counterweighted crank the W110 would be more appropriate for your motor. Unless you are going to spin the motor faster than 5500 on a regular basis you might think about going to single heavy duty valve springs. And if this isn't a high rpm motor you should forget about the W120 cam unless you want to up the CC's of the motor.

Arnolds64 Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:49 pm

Go with the 120 and 1.25 rockers. The higher lift will give you back some of your Torque. Also manxracer here recommended I advance the cam 4 degrees and I did using the CB straight cut can gear. You can get the helical adjustable. This will also help your torque in the Midrange. Add Dual Springs too. With the 40 IDF's this is about the largest cam you can go with without reversion problems and no low end. You have a DPR crank so use it up! I had a 120 in my 1641 not by choice as I bought the car with a bastard setup. Stock crank, same heads as you and I put the 40 IDFs on it. Really ran pretty good. With the IDFs it had good throttle response. Hey a little 1776 needs Revs to run strong so why not? Open your ports doing the Cal-Look.com DIY head porting. This will match it all up well. Why go with the same thing again? Hell I was flamed here for going with a 130 and 44 Webers in my 2017. Everyone said it would soggy and hard to drive in traffic and only with power up top. But most people do not have strokers. They can handle the bigger cams. It has 5.5 rods too, which also sends it's torque and power up the Rev range. I actually went from a 110 in it when I originally Stroked it. Yes smaller than the one it had when it was a 1641 for more of a calm motor for my son that was driving it for High School. Now I have it and wanted to juice it up. Runs very linear with good torque down low and only slight less but really very easy to drive in traffic but when you hit like at 3500 it just hauls ass and where the 110 dropped off it screams past that. I am guessing 6500+ with power. 2nd gear goes to the original 3rd gear ship point on the speedo very easily. I need to get my Tach in it.LOL!


Go for the 120 and 1.25 rockers. If you advance the cam with the rockers it will probably be about the same feel down low but you will get a hell of a lot more power to about 6000. Get a Dremel and port the heads and have fun.

jfats808 Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:20 pm

Besides going with the 120 cam, have the heads ported some to help velocity. Pump up the cr to 9 to make use of that ext fan oil cooler. Engle 110s are a very boring cam to me personally. You have an engine combination that has a bit more potential to pull out of. What happened to your stroker future build plans. Yourback from the theater? You should have some denero to build it. Leave your 17 alone and keep it for a back up.

tattooed_pariah Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:24 pm

Thanks for all the advice!

Still on the fence.. but leaning towards teh 120 now..

jfats: I actually got back in November, had to move to a new city for a new command, brought the girlfriend with me, blew about 8 grand buying appliances/dates/misc crap.. am broke again..

rebuilding the 1776 so i can drive my bug again..

I already run a 10:1 CR. actually still have to buy new heads too, but was planning on buying 40x35.5's.

I just figured I'd get new lifters/cam first since I need those to build a short block and that's the stage I'm at right now..

baked beetle Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:41 pm

Why is it only between these 2 cams? what about fk series or webcam or CB cam. lots to choose from.

pdub Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:11 pm

I vote for the 110-power band comes in sooner and better for your motor.

I have a 120 in my 2276 and even in it, with a CR of 9.3 I sort of wish I had more low end grunt. It works in my motor but for street driving myslef wouldnt choose the 120 for a 1776. If you like winding high and getting your bigest "boost"after 5K RPMs go for it...and keep your compression to match your given cam.

miketheblur Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:23 pm

It is all about where You want the powerband.A 120 will be dead down low but Its how you want to run it.I tried a web 163 which is between a 110 and 120 worked well but was sort of lazy down low also.My first 1776 in 1981 had 041 heads 40 webers with a engle 100 and kicked butt on larger engines .Any way have fun with it.

SRP1 Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:30 pm

W-110, set to cam card no advance or retard, 1.25 rockers, dual springs, and get your port work dialed in. The rest is just bolt on stuff.
W-120 not gonna get it done, I would have blown your doors off before you even hit 3rd gear. To much cam for that little engine unless you have short tires, and low gears, and even then not optimum.

fivelugshortaxle Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:50 am

I had the 120 in my little 1835 and it ran awesome.....39x32 041 heads with just a 3 angle valve job and high rev singles....kadron 40's.....was a beast.......ran fine to cruise around in, plenty of low end grunt.....but, around 3000 rpm it just jumped to about 6000-6500 and that's exactly where I wanted it....was always in the power between shifts.....loved it....a buddy of mine had the 110 in his 1835 and we had the exact set up except fro the cams.......he got me by a nudge right off the line by about half a car length, but I pulled past him half way through 2nd :wink:

vwracerdave Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:21 am

For a 1776 I'd choose W-110. With a1915 or larger then I'd get a W-120.

fivelugshortaxle wrote: ....a buddy of mine had the 110 in his 1835 and we had the exact set up except fro the cams.......he got me by a nudge right off the line by about half a car length, but I pulled past him half way through 2nd

It may not have been the cam. The exact same thing would happen if your buddy had an 4.12 R&P and you had a 3.88 R&P

tattooed_pariah Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:54 am

lotta good info here.. looks like I'm probabaly going for another 110..

as for why there's only two options here, it's cause i'm a simple creature and stick to what I know. I've had an Engle W110 for almost a decade and it's always been great to me.. Some people refuse to make any modifications to their car, I tend to stick with what's treated me well, we all have our preferences.

Thanks everyone!

ALB Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:01 am

You mentioned 40x35 heads in your initial post, but you didn't mention if they were ported? I've used both cams with Kadrons and unported stock heads in a 1750 and I found that with the W120 it didn't have much more top end (like I thought I would get), and while the bottom didn't seem much different, it didn't get quite the same mileage as with the W110 so torque did suffer a bit. If your heads have some porting work and you like the idea of the thing revving to 6000 (or a little more) with power, go with the W120 and take the previous advice and add 1.25 rockers with it. If you're happy with the way it ran before, the W110 is the winner. And again, if the heads are ported I'd go with the 1.25's and use all the flow you paid for. With either cam it will give more power all around.

Just my 2 1/2 cents (I'm Canadian, eh). Al

tattooed_pariah Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:48 am

ALB wrote: You mentioned 40x35 heads in your initial post, but you didn't mention if they were ported? I've used both cams with Kadrons and unported stock heads in a 1750 and I found that with the W120 it didn't have much more top end (like I thought I would get), and while the bottom didn't seem much different, it didn't get quite the same mileage as with the W110 so torque did suffer a bit. If your heads have some porting work and you like the idea of the thing revving to 6000 (or a little more) with power, go with the W120 and take the previous advice and add 1.25 rockers with it. If you're happy with the way it ran before, the W110 is the winner. And again, if the heads are ported I'd go with the 1.25's and use all the flow you paid for. With either cam it will give more power all around.

Just my 2 1/2 cents (I'm Canadian, eh). Al


I actually don't have heads at the moment.. looking at either Steve Tims Stage I's, RevMaster's new heads, or maybe Car Crafts big valve heads.. basically something inexpensive, but not total garbage.. Everyone keeps telling me to get CB Banditos but I'm trying ot stay as low budget as possible.. hence why I was so pissed that I even have to replace my cam and followers in the first place..

Clatter Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:56 pm

If you do your combo right, you can have it all.
I have 40x35.5 oval non-welded on a 1914.
With an 86b it has plenty of low-end grunt.
Never once have I felt the _need_ to down-shift in a normal traffic situation.
A bigger cam is going to need more compression to get the grunt back.
Mine requires premium at 9.4:1.
44s and a 1 5/8 exhaust allow the breathing to make the top end _fun_.

I built a "mileage motor" 1641 with 8.3:1 and ported stock-valve heads.
The E100 in it was _such_ a disappointment.
It totally fell on it's face at 4200 RPM or so....
Wish it has an E110, or better yet a Web 218.
Revving it was a total waste of time.
Short-shifting lawnmower engine...

My 1914 is SO fun!
Set the whole thing up to breathe, and you don't get a soggy bottom.
Match it ALL, and have the best of both worlds....

Pariah,
What exhaust do you plan to run?
Can you afford to run premium?

If it is just a fun car, why build a tractor engine?
120 is even too small IMHO, if you are going to do all the other stuff to maximize the combo.
Engle makes very conservative cams...

tattooed_pariah Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:01 pm

Clatter wrote: If you do your combo right, you can have it all.
I have 40x35.5 oval non-welded on a 1914.
With an 86b it has plenty of low-end grunt.
Never once have I felt the _need_ to down-shift in a normal traffic situation.
A bigger cam is going to need more compression to get the grunt back.
Mine requires premium at 9.4:1.
44s and a 1 5/8 exhaust allow the breathing to make the top end _fun_.

I built a "mileage motor" 1641 with 8.3:1 and ported stock-valve heads.
The E100 in it was _such_ a disappointment.
It totally fell on it's face at 4200 RPM or so....
Wish it has an E110, or better yet a Web 218.
Revving it was a total waste of time.
Short-shifting lawnmower engine...

My 1914 is SO fun!
Set the whole thing up to breathe, and you don't get a soggy bottom.
Match it ALL, and have the best of both worlds....

Pariah,
What exhaust do you plan to run?
Can you afford to run premium?

If it is just a fun car, why build a tractor engine?
120 is even too small IMHO, if you are going to do all the other stuff to maximize the combo.
Engle makes very conservative cams...

When this motor was running last, I ran a 10:1 CR on premium. it has dual 40IDFs and I was running the single hide away quiet pack. With everything listed above, I've gotten up to the 120mph range..

It's a project car that I'll drive when I feel like, not a daily driver, but not just for weekends either, you know?

I know I used to love the pep it had, I just figured if I'm buying new lifters and cam, now is the time to make any changes..

The exhaust I was using is J-pipes to a merged header and the low mount dual glasspack system from Chirco. I lost one of the glasspacks due to excessive backfiring, so I planned on bringing what I have left of the system to a custom exhaust shop, and seeing what they can fabricate for me.

Arnolds64 Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:41 pm

How about 50 mph in second gear or the III (third gear) that my 130 Engle will go to before I need to shift. Pretty much real world that you can see. I really think if you go with the 120 and 1.25s' or an FK43 Which would give you the torque of the 110, maybe more and upper hp of the 120. If this is a fun project car go for it . Why have a boring engine? I never heard anyone using the 130 as it was to radical for most folks. I find it pretty mild with my stroker. Nice and smooth performance. I think with ratio rockers keeping you torque will work. The .050 duration is the number that gives you more of an indication of the cams performance. They say 270 is getting crazy. The 130 as an example is 267 and my former cam was a 110 and @.050 247. Power was all down low and mids. The 130 is more Mid to Upper power.

MURZI Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:52 pm

I think it depends on where your cruise rpm is gonna be. For me, in my baja with 1835, 110 cam, and 28" tires I almost have to run in third around town ,50-55mph to stay "on the pipe". I think a 120 in my combo would be an absolute dog for regular driving. Now if you are always running down the freeway at 3200 rpm maybe a 120 would make sense. A 120 in a 1776 ain't gonna like low rpms.....based on what my 1835 does with a 110.

74 Thing Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:53 pm

What ever you do don't skimp on heads!

In fact spend the majority of your money on heads and porting and match porting the manifolds!

Tims, CB, DRD, Jeff Denham are all nice heads/porters just pick one you feel most comfortable with and once you decide on one of those ask their recommendation for cam and compression.



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