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Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:13 pm

Simple beginnings:
For the past month or so, I've found myself jonesing for a better daily driver. By better, I really mean simpler and easier to maintain. I'm always frustrated with newer cars and the number of computers and gizmos they come with, which inevitably break and cause me headaches. In my search for a simpler, more elegant machine, I've considered Porsches, Nissans (Datsuns, really), and pretty much anything else that I could come up with that's simple and RWD. I considered a Beetle for a few minutes, but decided the engine was in the wrong place, didn't make enough power, didn't have fancy enough suspension, etc etc etc.

... but I kept coming back to the super-simple design, and haven't been able to shake it. I love that there's really nothing to it, and after searching around a bit on this (rather awesome) site, I've found quite a few builds that really caught my eye.

I've come to terms with the fact that Baja conversions make my day.

Luckily, I'm not the first.

I've done a lot of reading, been through the entire sticky section of the late-models, and have come to the conclusion that no matter how much I read, I'm going to need first-hand advice. I have a daily driver right now (an 86 Nissan), but would really like something simpler to take its place. I'm not looking for a show car, or rock-crawling monster, just to keep the beautiful simplicity of this car while modernizing whatever's needed to make it daily driveable.

So, here's my primary question:
What should I be looking to buy, how much would I be looking to spend, and what would you experienced guys recommend that I research before taking the plunge and spending money?

I've considered the 12v conversion, because everyone else seems to do it.
I like the late-model Beetles because they're MUCH cheaper than older models, from what I've seen (in New England, anyway).
Standards seem to be quite a bit less expensive to maintain than Supers (correct me if I've got the wrong impression, the Super seems like a better idea for my needs).
Baja conversions seem inexpensive (engine cage plus fiberglass body kit comes to ~$750 after shipping).
I'm not afraid of cutting and welding, or wiring, or mechanical work, but I'm not looking to restore or rebuild a dying chassis.

Recap my priorities, one last time:
I care about mechanical reliability, so getting moderate safety (proper seatbelts, brakes that will let me do more than gradually slow down, suspension and steering that more or less goes where I ask it to, and enough power to get on the highway without getting out and pushing) is pretty important. I've done ground-up restorations, engine swaps, and I even owned a mid-90's BMW for awhile (which was absolute hell, with all the overly complicated ... everything). I'm comfortable doing my own work, but really have no idea of what I'm getting into with air-cooled VW's specifically. ANY advice you guys (and gals?) can offer would be much appreciated.

Please help? I'm probably looking at planning and budgeting this throughout a good portion of the winter, possibly even waiting until Spring to kick things off properly.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:38 pm

I was hoping for a little more than that, honestly. No advice whatsoever? Not even an explanation of what makes me trying to plan my next project so boring to you?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:41 pm

You better be handy and know how to do basic repairs.

Driving any 40+ year old car you should expect it to have some issues.

How about finding a 2004 Mexican Beetle. It will be basically brand new.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:50 pm

I'd say I'm mechanically inclined. I've owned several 40-year-old cars in varying states of (dis)repair, and I'm comfortable tearing down and rebuilding engines, have spent enough time working a lathe and mill that I know to take blocks to more experienced machinists. I expect plenty of issues, but it does seem like the air-cooled VWs are a different beast from most cars. I don't know though, lacking first-hand experience with them. I'm not looking for something that's trouble-free, I'm just tired of having to rewire EFI cars, and finding that all that's left of the bushings are little chunks of rubber that haven't fallen off yet. From what I've seen, $2k should get a reasonably in-tact VW.

I'd done a little research on the Mexican Beetles, but I'd have to add a LOT of equipment to it to legalize it up here... then there's the additional expense of getting it here. I had kind of crossed that one off the list of realistic possibilities after looking into it.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:01 pm

Finding a decent DD in NH that will pass state inspection will probably cost a bit more than $2k.
I'm right up the street from you in Goffstown. I've owned a number of ACVWs in NH and finding them rot-free can be a challenge.

That said, I've owned a couple VWs as daily drivers. If I were to do it again, I would find a Type 3, probably a Squareback. A Beetle was just to small for my driving routine and a camper wasn't all that practical either.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:05 pm

My best advice...
either a) find a nice restored VW, will set you back 6-12k dollars
or b) spend your 2k$ and get ready for a money pit.
Good deals CAN be found for 2k, but are few and far between.

I drive my 64 daily. I wrench on it near daily as well. If you don't wanna wrench often, I'd say get an older carb'd toyota.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:08 pm

BTW... there's a Type 3 Fastback in Weare listed on craigslist right now that doesn't run, but from the pics (not always reliable) it doesn't look to bad. The guy is asking $1000, but I bet you could talk him down, been on there a few weeks. The body/chassis is the most important thing when shopping VWs in New England.
I was going to look at it myself, but I know I can't afford it at the moment. Would be happy to look at it with you if you're unfamiliar with the typical Volks quirks.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:15 pm

WestyMan1971 wrote: Finding a decent DD in NH that will pass state inspection will probably cost a bit more than $2k.
I'm right up the street from you in Goffstown. I've owned a number of ACVWs in NH and finding them rot-free can be a challenge.

That said, I've owned a couple VWs as daily drivers. If I were to do it again, I would find a Type 3, probably a Squareback. A Beetle was just to small for my driving routine and a camper wasn't all that practical either.

You really are just up the road from me! I'm fine with spending a bit more ($4k or so) if it's worth the difference. The small size of the beetle is kind of what makes it for me. I guess you could say I'm looking for a winter-able motorcycle, of sorts. I rarely have a passenger, and can't remember the last time I actually needed to haul more than one other person. The Type 3 was the Ghia and that kind of body style, right?

Darth VeeDub wrote: My best advice...
either a) find a nice restored VW, will set you back 6-12k dollars
or b) spend your 2k$ and get ready for a money pit.
Good deals CAN be found for 2k, but are few and far between.

I drive my 64 daily. I wrench on it near daily as well. If you don't wanna wrench often, I'd say get an older carb'd toyota.

$2k is just a starting point. Just browsing Craigslist (which isn't always the best gauge, but I have to start somewhere) has come up with a few reasonably rot-free examples that advertise that they run and have all their lights around that price range.

As far as a carb'd toyota goes, I completely agree. They're great vehicles. There are lots of great vehicles, that make much more sense. I've been telling myself that for the past month, but just can't talk any sense into myself. I like how 'plucky' baja VWs appear to be (both visually and based upon how people drive them).

Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:22 pm

drummingpariah wrote: The Type 3 was the Ghia and that kind of body style, right?

Nope, the Ghia was a sports coupe/convertible based on the type 1 (Beetle) chassis. The type 3 was a whole new chassis, slightly larger, with three different body styles available: the Notchback (sedan), Squareback (wagon) and the Fastback. There also was a type 3 Ghia, but they're fairly rare and much different than the well-known type 1 Ghia.

Anyway, have you checked the classifieds on this site? I browse them fairly frequently and there's always a number of Bugs available. They tend to be more consistent pricing. I find that folks on craigslist either think "this is a cheap piece of junk" (the type I tend to look for :wink:) or "this is a rare car, I must have top-dollar!"

A baja may not be the most practical for a New England winter either. Aftermarket exhausts often eliminate the heating system.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:34 pm

WestyMan1971 wrote: Nope, the Ghia was a sports coupe/convertible based on the type 1 (Beetle) chassis. The type 3 was a whole new chassis, slightly larger, with three different body styles available: the Notchback (sedan), Squareback (wagon) and the Fastback. There also was a type 3 Ghia, but they're fairly rare and much different than the well-known type 1 Ghia.

Anyway, have you checked the classifieds on this site? I browse them fairly frequently and there's always a number of Bugs available. They tend to be more consistent pricing. I find that folks on craigslist either think "this is a cheap piece of junk" (the type I tend to look for :wink:) or "this is a rare car, I must have top-dollar!"

A baja may not be the most practical for a New England winter either. Aftermarket exhausts often eliminate the heating system.

I'm going to have to some research on this mythical Type 3 thingie then. I don't know that I've ever seen one.

I've browsed the classifieds here, but it's tough to find something in this region. I like that the classifieds on here tend to include all the information I could possibly want to know, and the prices seem pretty reasonable to boot. I too tend to look for diamonds in the rough on craigslist, and they aren't typically too difficult to find if you know what you're looking for (I don't, obviously).

I was hoping there'd be a great solution to the no-defrost-in-a-baja issue, but I think that just fabricating an exhaust manifold with some heatsinks on it would solve that? That wouldn't bother me, but I haven't looked into the heating system in detail, I'm just aware that the heater channels tend to rot first.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:37 pm

Here's the type 3 Fastback on Craigslist:
http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/2588746445.html

drummingpariah wrote:
I was hoping there'd be a great solution to the no-defrost-in-a-baja issue, but I think that just fabricating an exhaust manifold with some heatsinks on it would solve that? That wouldn't bother me, but I haven't looked into the heating system in detail, I'm just aware that the heater channels tend to rot first.

You could possibly modify a baja exhaust to fit with the stock VW heater box if you have some fabrication skills.

Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:58 pm

drummingpariah wrote: So, here's my primary question:
What should I be looking to buy, how much would I be looking to spend, and what would you experienced guys recommend that I research before taking the plunge and spending money?

I've considered the 12v conversion, because everyone else seems to do it.
I like the late-model Beetles because they're MUCH cheaper than older models, from what I've seen (in New England, anyway).
Standards seem to be quite a bit less expensive to maintain than Supers (correct me if I've got the wrong impression, the Super seems like a better idea for my needs).
Baja conversions seem inexpensive (engine cage plus fiberglass body kit comes to ~$750 after shipping).
I'm not afraid of cutting and welding, or wiring, or mechanical work, but I'm not looking to restore or rebuild a dying chassis.

Recap my priorities, one last time:
I care about mechanical reliability, so getting moderate safety (proper seatbelts, brakes that will let me do more than gradually slow down, suspension and steering that more or less goes where I ask it to, and enough power to get on the highway without getting out and pushing) is pretty important. I've done ground-up restorations, engine swaps, and I even owned a mid-90's BMW for awhile (which was absolute hell, with all the overly complicated ... everything). I'm comfortable doing my own work, but really have no idea of what I'm getting into with air-cooled VW's specifically. ANY advice you guys (and gals?) can offer would be much appreciated.

Please help? I'm probably looking at planning and budgeting this throughout a good portion of the winter, possibly even waiting until Spring to kick things off properly.

My opinion ... in stock form, a '68-'72 model would suit you best as a daily, either Standard or Super. Ideally, for me, a '70 model is what I'd choose.
12v started in '67 for all Beetles in the US.
High back seats, collapseable steering, dual-circuit brakes all started in '68.
In equal condition, I don't see that there would be much difference in maintenance cost between a Super or Standard.
I've daily driven a bone stock '72 Super since 1990. A healthy 1600 has no trouble keeping up with traffic. The only time I might have trouble getting on the highway is if it's a very short uphill entrance ramp. The drum brakes, kept in proper adjustment, stop the car very well.

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:16 am

I don't like it when people have such little faith in their VWs. I daily drove a VW Thing as my first car for six years. Gave me trouble once our twice, but it always got me where I needed to go.

Classic VWs are tanks. It takes a lot to kill a stock Beetle.

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:43 am

My 2 cents - Just some general comments. Stay away from type 3s of any sort. Parts are non-existent. Basic bug is the most "owner/builder" friendly.

Doing this and doing it right is not cheap unless you luck into a barn find that is low miles. And even at that, you need to go thru everything.

2 ways to own/drive and old car - fix it as it breaks or go through the car completely from top to bottom and fix it all at once. I prefer the latter and asside from normal maintenance or mods, don't have to wrench on my cars at all. I have put around 12-15K miles on my 65 summer daily driver and only had a fuel pump failure. Otherwise I just get in it and go. But I am guessing that I have at least $7-9K in the car.

I agree that a later bug would be better - At least 69ish or newer. Heat is much better. IRS rear suspension and they are cheaper.

Performance - its not hard to build a good reliable engine with enough power to move the car well, but thats another subject that has been covered extensively on here. Quality and performance = $$$

Fuel economy/saving money in general - This better not be the reason you are doin this - my daughter's 2000 Accord gets better mileage than our best bug and is way faster and more comfortable. Plus was much cheaper to buy. But the bugs are much cooler....

So - not saying to go for it - just make sure you are doing it for the right reasons.

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:54 am

andk5591 wrote: My 2 cents - Just some general comments. Stay away from type 3s of any sort. Parts are non-existent. Basic bug is the most "owner/builder" friendly.

Agreed that the Bug is the most owner-friendly when it comes to parts. However, saying that Type 3 parts are non-existent is simply not true, with the exception of the T34 Ghia. Plenty of aircooled parts houses have aftermarket and OEM parts available, as well as most VW junkyards having vehicles to pick from. Not to mention, many parts are the same between the Beetle and the type 3.

If you want to talk non-existent parts, look at the 411/412.

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:08 am

I dunno - have a buddy that was going to restore a 69 squareback and unless you are in California or someplace similar - they are not in any junkyards. In the northeast, almost any you find will need floors, heater channels, etc.........

I mean, I understand what you are saying, but for the OP living in New Hampshire, going that route would be more than a little difficult.

Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:28 am

andk5591 wrote: I mean, I understand what you are saying, but for the OP living in New Hampshire, going that route would be more than a little difficult.

I'm in NH too, so I completely understand that.
There is a British company that makes type 3 repair panels for the most commonly rusted areas. Things like full floor pans, etc are NLA. You really just have to pick your battles around here. I learned at 16 that the Ghia I bought was so far gone, it would have taken more money than the car would ever be worth to fix it.

Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:07 am

Any VW you buy will need Shipped parts, so don't buy one thinking you can drive to Town and find everything. I'm shipping good used Type 3 parts/repair sections world wide & I'm not the only one. ISP West is a Type 3 Specialist in new/used parts. Gerson is selling new Type 3 1/2 pans for $300 each. I love my '69 automatic transmission squareback daily driver. VW's handle good in the snow!

Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:40 am

andk5591 wrote: I dunno - have a buddy that was going to restore a 69 squareback and unless you are in California or someplace similar - they are not in any junkyards. In the northeast, almost any you find will need floors, heater channels, etc.........

I mean, I understand what you are saying, but for the OP living in New Hampshire, going that route would be more than a little difficult.

You're right. Finding donor cars for anything older than 1995 is pretty difficult out here. There seem to be quite a few classic VW shops in my area though, so there must be SOME kind of market around here. I'll stop in to a shop I know of with a good reputation in Berwick (ME) in the next couple weeks, to see what parts availability looks like up here. Who knows, they may even have a reasonable car they want to unload!

WestyMan1971 wrote: Agreed that the Bug is the most owner-friendly when it comes to parts. However, saying that Type 3 parts are non-existent is simply not true, with the exception of the T34 Ghia. Plenty of aircooled parts houses have aftermarket and OEM parts available, as well as most VW junkyards having vehicles to pick from. Not to mention, many parts are the same between the Beetle and the type 3.

If you want to talk non-existent parts, look at the 411/412.

Part of what I like so much about the Beetle is that there seems to be an overwhelming amount of spare parts around. I looked up typical repair parts, like ball joints, steering arms, and engine gasket kits ($10?!?! Seriously?) and it seems like all the usual wear parts are readily available, and inexpensive enough that I could even stock them in my own garage.

andk5591 wrote: My 2 cents - Just some general comments. Stay away from type 3s of any sort. Parts are non-existent. Basic bug is the most "owner/builder" friendly.

Doing this and doing it right is not cheap unless you luck into a barn find that is low miles. And even at that, you need to go thru everything.

2 ways to own/drive and old car - fix it as it breaks or go through the car completely from top to bottom and fix it all at once. I prefer the latter and asside from normal maintenance or mods, don't have to wrench on my cars at all. I have put around 12-15K miles on my 65 summer daily driver and only had a fuel pump failure. Otherwise I just get in it and go. But I am guessing that I have at least $7-9K in the car.

I agree that a later bug would be better - At least 69ish or newer. Heat is much better. IRS rear suspension and they are cheaper.

Performance - its not hard to build a good reliable engine with enough power to move the car well, but thats another subject that has been covered extensively on here. Quality and performance = $$$

Fuel economy/saving money in general - This better not be the reason you are doin this - my daughter's 2000 Accord gets better mileage than our best bug and is way faster and more comfortable. Plus was much cheaper to buy. But the bugs are much cooler....

So - not saying to go for it - just make sure you are doing it for the right reasons.

I've never liked having to rely on just one car. Something is always bound to break eventually, no matter how great you are about maintaining it. My s12 Nissan averages 48mpg, does a happy little rear-end dance when you mat the throttle, and is generally just a great daily driver, but it doesn't charm me. It doesn't make me smile when I come out of the gas station.

As for the power issue, I don't think I'd build the VW engine. I've been looking into alternative engines that I could eventually mate to it, like a GL1500 engine with a supercharger, or a Virago 1100 twin, or something along those lines. It may not be 'easier' than building a powerful air-cooled VW, but I'd be happier with the result, overall.

Lobotomy wrote: I don't like it when people have such little faith in their VWs. I daily drove a VW Thing as my first car for six years. Gave me trouble once our twice, but it always got me where I needed to go.

Classic VWs are tanks. It takes a lot to kill a stock Beetle.

People are bound to have good and bad experiences, which flavor their opinions. The big problem I'm concerned with out here is getting a shell that's reasonably rot-free. Rust is fine, but when I have to weld in a 1-foot-square of steel, I'm having a bad day. All I'm asking for here is feedback, one way or the other. It's obvious to me that Beetles can live on virtually forever, but it's also pretty clear that many of the ones I see on Craigslist have already lived virtually forever, and eventually they'll die.

Scott H wrote: My opinion ... in stock form, a '68-'72 model would suit you best as a daily, either Standard or Super. Ideally, for me, a '70 model is what I'd choose.
12v started in '67 for all Beetles in the US.
High back seats, collapseable steering, dual-circuit brakes all started in '68.
In equal condition, I don't see that there would be much difference in maintenance cost between a Super or Standard.
I've daily driven a bone stock '72 Super since 1990. A healthy 1600 has no trouble keeping up with traffic. The only time I might have trouble getting on the highway is if it's a very short uphill entrance ramp. The drum brakes, kept in proper adjustment, stop the car very well.

Killer! I hadn't seen a changelog of what VW did to modify the design as they went along. I had quad drum brakes in my Ford Falcon, and after working out the quirks with adjusting them (honestly, that was no small task), it did a reasonable job of braking that I'd trust. Collapsible steering is a pretty huge deal to me, as is dual-circuit brakes.

Thanks, you guys. You really have been a huge help. Time to put together a plan for what I'm putting together, and get some prices down, I think.

Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:22 pm

And the most important thing is to have fun.

As far as the bike engine goes - I recall seeing fiberglass bodies old style Minis that had a big Yamaha (I think) engine in them and they were supposed to be wild.

I would look into the gearing and torque curves pretty seriously though. Would be cool to pull it off and its been done http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fon8yZexl_o&feature=related - man what a blast that would be to drive.