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Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:45 pm

Skinned cat!!!...

TPS on a Dellorto carb body...

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=137879

Proves anything can be done...

Dale

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:58 pm

Max Welton wrote: Sniperx wrote: MOst specifically...the TPS.
Lots of ways to skin that cat.

Go to http://www.maxwelton2k.net/squareback68/MST3/ and select the "Throttle Position Sensor" link near the bottom of the page.

Max

Now see...thats the answer I was looking for. Part numbers, dimensions, pictures, etc.

Why is it the MS crowd seems like it tries to make things harder than they need to be...is it too hard to say "The mexican TB uses Bosch #123XYZ TPS"?

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:02 pm

I'm part of the MS crowd and I didn't think it was that hard ... :lol:

Max

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:10 pm

Actually the MS crowd goes out of its way to support and help people...

Some times the "crowd" just can't fight down the "negative attitude" of people who do not have the knowledge to do EFI and insist on doing it a way that is doomed to failure from the beginning....

There is a wealth of knowledge out there, one just has to ask the right questions and have open mind to advice or criticism from the people with "experience"...

One also has to keep in mind, that going EFI and how its implemented is a highly personalized endeavor.... What works for person "A" may be totally unacceptable to person "B"...

What you see here on The Samba probably represents maybe 1-2% of the total knowledge pool out there about MS....

Megasquirt even has it own FORUMS....

http://www.megamanual.com/forums.htm

http://www.msefi.com/

Dale

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:14 pm

You're right, but I get a lot of snide feeling remarks. Is it wrong to ask specific questions trying to make an educated choice on the system that is best for my purposes? If I wanted specialized and complicated I'd stick with my Dellortos, but I'd like to know if I were somewhere in Canada or South America I can get parts from a store or junkyard.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:22 pm

I'm not convinced the MS route is the direction I need to go. This is a daily driver that needs reliability and repairability over being able to tune things to an extremely refined degree. I've heard a major comlpaint locally about the MS system locally from a V8 user...he is constantly having to reset it every month due to some error. MS is not saving me any money bu the time you put it all together and add software that is included by others.

Take Mario's setups. They are 1500 average and don't include wideband or crank sensors. Adding those on you're over 2000usd. Take the new CB Magna kit, you get all that (including coil pack I believe) plus dual throttle bodies and linkage for a couple hundred more. Less if you went with a Mexi setup.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:24 pm

Sniperx wrote: You're right, but I get a lot of snide feeling remarks. Is it wrong to ask specific questions trying to make an educated choice on the system that is best for my purposes? If I wanted specialized and complicated I'd stick with my Dellortos, but I'd like to know if I were somewhere in Canada or South America I can get parts from a store or junkyard.

Guess you missed the part of the discussion about adapting something.... You could always use a TPS off a FORD 2.3L FI engine which has pretty much world wide available...

Dale

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:31 pm

How often have you seen a tps go bad? If much no one would recomend a wrecking yard unit, the hardware be it vw, chebby or whatever is usually bullit proof(usually)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:35 pm

That's my feeling, I've had a junkyard TB and TPS from a VW Golf in my car fo rthe past 4 years and it's never gone bad.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:36 pm

Dale M. wrote: Sniperx wrote: You're right, but I get a lot of snide feeling remarks. Is it wrong to ask specific questions trying to make an educated choice on the system that is best for my purposes? If I wanted specialized and complicated I'd stick with my Dellortos, but I'd like to know if I were somewhere in Canada or South America I can get parts from a store or junkyard.

Guess you missed the part of the discussion about adapting something.... You could always use a TPS off a FORD 2.3L FI engine which has pretty much world wide available...

Dale

No, I got it....

You can adapt an E28 Big 6 to fit into BMW 2002 if you want to also. I'd like to stick to original equipment when possible...it ensures fit and function. Looking at the Bosch specs there...these things have different angles of operation, clockwise and counter, different voltages, and several other different specs.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:42 pm

A 3 wire tps is simply a potentiometer, nothing more, if you run it clockwise you wire accordingly, counterclockwise the same, it doesn't matter what voltage, however I don't know of one that doesn't run a 5 volt reference

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:05 pm

Sniperx wrote: I've heard a major comlpaint locally about the MS system locally from a V8 user...he is constantly having to reset it every month due to some error.

One mans problems is not a criteria for condemning the whole system.... Think of the other 99.99% who have had success....

Quote: I'd like to stick to original equipment when possible..

Then EFI on ACVW is probably not for you...

Dale

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:56 pm

FWIW, mine has been rock-solid reliable.

Max

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:31 pm

Dale M. wrote:
One mans problems is not a criteria for condemning the whole system.... Think of the other 99.99% who have had success....

Dale

No, maybe not, however the system does not meet the criteria I have set for a system I want to pursue...nor have I found a REALLY comprehensive guide on how to build an MS system for a VW. So far the best I've gotten is links to sites and condescending remarks.

Way to take my comment out of context by the way...

Frankly, Dale, looking back at your comments....they have offered little advice, encouragement or really anything of much value. Thank you for your time, but I'll begin disregarding your posts at this point.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:18 am

If all you're going to do is take people's contructive criticisms the wrong way, then perhaps this isn't for you. No one here is trying to disparage anyone else, but some things need to be cleared up.

MS is a one size fits all solution. It can be installed on just about any engine, perhaps with a little bit of bodging. If that's not what you want, pay someone else to do it for you.

MS is cheap, because it's an open source product. A lot of different people had a hand in making it, it's not a pretty or expensive $1500 EFI system. It's stated purpose is to expose people to the world of electronic fuel injection at low cost, if that's not what you want you should shop elsewhere.

Since MS is supposed to be about learning the ins and outs of FI, those of us who made that journey most times will simply tell people to read the manuals and learn for themselves. It has nothing to do with being diminutive, everything to do with the learning process. If you don't want to read the manuals in an effort to do as we did, this is not for you.

I don't mean to ball bust, but MS does have it's own forum. Go over there and search the extensive threads, I promise you will not be at a lack for information. If at the end you just don't understand, pay someone else to FI your engine for you. But also be prepared to pay that same person every time you break down, every time the ECU has a problem, every time it needs some tuning adjustment, and every time it starts acting up and you can't figure it out for yourself.

2 different worlds, decide which is the one you want to live in. It's as simple as reading a book. Or rather, a manual. :wink:

Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:34 am

Pat D wrote: Eaallred wrote: Where can I read more on the new CB setup? Always looking to educate myself more about what is out there. Any links or anything to read up on it? Eric, Email me at CB and I will reply back with the software attachment. I havn't even advertised the new ecu yet.

I am also interested because I am not sure to want learning a lot about FI, but after 30 years of carbs and four years of draw through turbo it's time to try an other way. I want to keep it as simple as possible for my turbo application, with only one Throttle body, controlling ignition, two step limiters and that's all. :wink:
what is the cost of this new set up?

Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:33 am

Sniperx wrote:

Frankly, Dale, looking back at your comments....they have offered little advice, encouragement or really anything of much value. Thank you for your time, but I'll begin disregarding your posts at this point.

No disrespect intended but its your loss.... Quite frankly your comments have not come close to asking the correct questions or reflect you have done your home work by researching on your own.... Ever time some body tries to answer your questions, you reply with a "negative"... Some of the best minds in doing ACVW EFI are here and have responded to your request and you have just whined back at them... Myself and others have given you links (resources) to at least a million words written on perhaps 50 web sites (If you are inclined to follow "discovered" links) and you say we are not helpful.... IF you want EFI have someone build it for you.....

http://cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1665

Bye - Bye....

Dale

Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:35 am

miniman82 wrote: If all you're going to do is take people's contructive criticisms the wrong way, then perhaps this isn't for you. No one here is trying to disparage anyone else, but some things need to be cleared up.

MS is a one size fits all solution. It can be installed on just about any engine, perhaps with a little bit of bodging. If that's not what you want, pay someone else to do it for you.

MS is cheap, because it's an open source product. A lot of different people had a hand in making it, it's not a pretty or expensive $1500 EFI system. It's stated purpose is to expose people to the world of electronic fuel injection at low cost, if that's not what you want you should shop elsewhere.

Since MS is supposed to be about learning the ins and outs of FI, those of us who made that journey most times will simply tell people to read the manuals and learn for themselves. It has nothing to do with being diminutive, everything to do with the learning process. If you don't want to read the manuals in an effort to do as we did, this is not for you.

I don't mean to ball bust, but MS does have it's own forum. Go over there and search the extensive threads, I promise you will not be at a lack for information. If at the end you just don't understand, pay someone else to FI your engine for you. But also be prepared to pay that same person every time you break down, every time the ECU has a problem, every time it needs some tuning adjustment, and every time it starts acting up and you can't figure it out for yourself.

2 different worlds, decide which is the one you want to live in. It's as simple as reading a book. Or rather, a manual. :wink:

See the problem here is, I'm not interested in the bells and whistles MS has to offer. I don't need shift lights or fan controllers or any number of things. I DON'T want to build a system from the ground up, I want a tried and true EFI system ready to go in a box..I COULD go with the -tronic or -jet systems, but you can get into trouble with hard to find parts down the road. The reason my questions seem "uninformed" is I've read many of the things on STF, including the intro to EFI threads and the dictionary over there...most of which I understood....some of which I didn't but expect to understand when parts, software and everything else are in hand. I also have people around me who are engineers, have worked on Subaru EFI systems, and read plenty of books. My questions are very specific and regard parts and things specific to VWs...IE Mexico TPS.

Heres a good question about EFI basics that has me a little confused...
Speed Density (MAP), Alpha N, Open Loop, Closed loop...how do these all play into each other? Why would you want to run Alpha N over a constant learning speed density system? Why wouldn't you run in closed loop al the time (waiting for O2 sensor to heat up?) Are OL/CL just different names for Alpha N and Speed Density based programming?

Heres another. Why are people still using MAP sensors and not MAF? MAF is newer technology.

And finally something for everyone can enjoy....my brother (the mech engineer) and I are considering building a miller cycle base ACVW using EFI (required) and working out a turbine/compressor combo that will give us pressure in the low end (extreme low end since you have no wasted exhaust pressure) to make up for the lost power. We were considering developing it around a cam-less design, but current information states solenoid tech isn't quite fast enough to keep up. In a camless operation, the MS would really shine as it may be used to operate the solenoids among other things. We're not a bunch o dummies over here...

Edit:
Heres a very good read on EFI http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0607mmfp_ford_efi_system_tuning/viewall.html

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:07 pm

Sniperx wrote: I'm not interested in the bells and whistles MS has to offer. I don't need shift lights or fan controllers or any number of things. I DON'T want to build a system from the ground up, I want a tried and true EFI system ready to go in a box.

Then buy the CB system, or look into having your engine FI'd by a shop. Also, don't forget to stop by the bank on your way...

Quote: Speed Density (MAP), Alpha N, Open Loop, Closed loop...how do these all play into each other?

See, this is what I mean by very basic questions that would be easily answered by reading the manual. All the things you're looking for are out there, you just have to look. You have to have a thirst for understanding the system if you hope to master it, otherwise you're stuck having someone else do it for money.

Quote: Heres another. Why are people still using MAP sensors and not MAF? MAF is newer technology.

MAFs come in different sizes (flow rates) for different engines, what works on a 5.0 Ford will probably not be a good match for a VW. SD uses manifold pressure for load sensing, so it's universal for all engines. No looking for the right size MAF, just put the rubber hose on a barb in your manifold and tune.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:35 pm

You know, the whole build - adapt - configure thing isn't for everyone.

But you are playing in the non-stock ACVW world. There are an almost infinite number of displacements, cams, compression ratios and vehicle applications. The customer-base in the non-stock ACVW world interested in FI is minuscule compared to, for example, small-block Chevies. So the number of plug-and-play solutions is correspondingly tiny. Also, the knowledge-base for those solutions is concentrated in the vendors of those products.

You say you want "reliability and repair ability"? Me too.

And for me, part of that is making sure I completely understand every system that is in the car. If something fails in the middle of nowhere, I find it handy that my mechanic is right there in the car. It's me.

This comes down to what you are comfortable with out on the road (or the bush). Can you field-strip, clean and reassemble your Dells in a motel bathroom? If so, those carbs are a good solution for you. Carb parts don't generally fail. They get dirty or plugged. Things rattle loose and need to be readjusted. Those are carb things.

With an FI system, your out-in-the-boonies issues will more likely be electrical or sensor-related. And it turns out I'm much better with MegaSquirt than I ever was with carbs. I can troubleshoot it because I understand it. Not sure I could do that with one of the plug-n-play systems.

So buy whatever you are comfortable with.

You still have to become an educated consumer to make a good choice in the first place.

Max