TheSamba.com :: View topic - if you had a choice of Subaru engines and your on a budget

Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:52 pm

if you had a choice of Subaru engines and your on a budget what would you use in your buggy. what year and why

i wanted to use the XT6 i know its low horse power but its shorter than a corvair and would give a similar sound.
about 145 horse so enough to scoot along BUT doesnt fit the new engine adpters (EJ) series so now im looking at a 4 cylinder
i thought about the quad cam engine but think there kind of ugly
i like this one http://youtu.be/SK-WfVPcsfQ so ide like to run a single cam but im not sure what year and model to look for
i like the looks of this bell housing adapter kit way more then the adapter plate stylehttp://www.smallcar.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29778

Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:45 am

Any of the 4 cylinder motors are going to put enough horsepower to rear wheels the you can either scare yourself, or be able to break transaxle really bad if you want to....

http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/homepage.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Subaru_engines
(think hp rating here are a little under rated)

Also once you get "tunable injection" you can unleash some hidden horsepower...

I would think a EJ20 or EJ22 could bring a smile to your face...

You also realize this bellhousing has to couple up to a 091 bus trans-axle which is more expensive to acquire and more complicated to install ( well just a tiny bit) ...

http://www.smallcar.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29778

Where the Kennedy system for about same price gives you "everything" to couple engine up to standard T1 trans-axle...

And as for sound it is mostly muffler/exhaust system...

Dale

Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:08 am

This one is my favorite. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeBloNtmrdc&fea...E65ECDA5EB That is before we got the cold start program in the ECU. We are going to have a complete Outfront Type 1 adaptor setup & beefed up transaxle for sale soon, switching to Mendeola transaxle. Tom

Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:11 am

the bellhousing fits both 002 and 091 and i have two of the 002s i was planning on using we are building a tube chassis and tilting the transaxle nose down to go threw the stock type one location which would angle the engine up a bit to gain some oil pan clearance

Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:22 pm

Kreelak wrote: if you had a choice of Subaru engines and your on a budget what would you use in your buggy. what year and why

i wanted to use the XT6 i know its low horse power but its shorter than a corvair and would give a similar sound.
about 145 horse so enough to scoot along BUT doesnt fit the new engine adpters (EJ) series so now im looking at a 4 cylinder
i thought about the quad cam engine but think there kind of ugly
i like this one http://youtu.be/SK-WfVPcsfQ so ide like to run a single cam but im not sure what year and model to look for
i like the looks of this bell housing adapter kit way more then the adapter plate stylehttp://www.smallcar.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29778

Okay... what skill sets do you possess in order to pull this swap off? Have you built a stock air cooled buggy first? This is somewhat of a major undertaking to perform...

bryan

Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:55 pm

I'm a mechanic for Vancouver School Dist work on anything from our buses big and small and all of our Support equipment, years ago I built an air cooled fb buggy. Also a Suzuki Samurai I installed a Toyota 18rg and trany, transfer case and a Dana 44 with an air locker and my quad is 1986 Honda 250r with a 1990 CBR 600 street bike engine.
So I like figuring stuff out. from younger days Ive learned not to jump in blindly feet first asking a few questions can save you alot of money

Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:21 pm

EJ series engine all the way.
I think 3 main options:
1) Domestic engine with computer - 2.5L out of a Legacy/Impreza/Forrester. Get a conversion harness to use in a buggy. More $$ up front, but less repairs/rebuilding/custom electronics needed.
2) Older domestic Legacy engine, 2.2L and computer. Converison harness for this one too. Cheaper to get, but might need a rebuild?
3) JDM motor 2.5L and stand alone ECU from Outfront. Plug and play computer set-up, a little less $$ for the motor but more for the computer.

Outfront has all the conversion bits to make any of the above go into a buggy - headers, intake bits, all the little stuff.
Kennedy makes the adapter kits, but may not have them in stock?

I like that video of the Suby powered buggy - yo yo yo, man that left handed shifting is making me dizzy! :D

Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:38 pm

i live in Washington state and want it to be very freewayable but some light trail use i would realy like to be able to drive it to big bear for some of the runs

Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:03 pm

I am using a 1997 Subaru 2.5L NA in my Manxter with a 091 and 33in tires.
The manxter weighs more than regular short wheelbase buggy.
I can tell you it has plenty of power for now.
On Outfronts chassis dyno it has 180hp at engine.
If you want a bigger size stock engine the 3.0L six cylinder is only 1 1/2in longer than the 4 cylinder EJ series.
The 3.3L is not really used because it is heavy and longer, changes the balance of the buggy.
There picture of mine in a thread about trans gearing (don't know how to link thread).
Also on Jake Raby's site Aircooledtechnology he is developing and bigger displacement based on the 2.5L engine.
You may want to join his site and read what Jake has posted about this engine if your interested.

Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:19 pm

i was wanting to get 96 or newer for the OBD 2 and the 2.5 sounds like the one to get
can the intake be reversed on the 2.5 for better body clearance

ill check out the other site

thanks Brad

Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:47 pm

Brad:

Reversed intakes are common mod - plenty of info on web to accomplish this -

This is what I looked at when I did a DOHC 2.5 install:

Outfront: minimum $1k for Link 1 engine management computer & add $350+ for harness.

- minimum $1100 for EMS Stinger w/ base map installed, then add $350+ for harness.

OR: www.enginewiring.com
- have them modify a stock Subaru EJ22/EJ25 harness from the donor vehicle - $495.00 - all series through 2002 (but they can modify newer harnesses)

EngineWiring mod'd the harness & returned it loomed in a new loom with all extraneous wires removed. No trouble codes. Plugged it right in, no issues. No 'odd electronics' in the system, all factory Subaru sensors for easy replacement, and in the event that a engine computer got toasted, it was easy to get a cheap replacement Subaru unit. These are the things that I looked at.

From website:

Subaru
All Series Through 2002 $495.00
Price includes process of secondary harness that incorporates the alternator on some models.
These second harnesses will be returned much smaller.
V.S.S. Simulator included and installed with this conversion.
+$20.00 Return Shipping in the United States

Note: I'm not knocking Outfront or their products, but I'd venture a guess that the majority of swappers installing Subaru power into any vehicle seldom move beyond a freer-flowing intake filter & a header...

I also know that many people buy motors without harnesses (I bought my '97 DOHC 2.5 from a wrecked Legacy, test drove car & then pulled motor & all wiring harnesses from car myself for $1k). Sold buggy as a running roller that needed glass/paintwork - but it was sweet & plenty fast.

Any aftermarket engine management system will inevitably need to be tuned for optimal performance, so don't forget to include spending bucks for the tuning time as well -

Good Luck with your project & post photos!

bryan

Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:18 pm

I've seen 3, EJ-25s out of WRXs with piston problems this summer and one showed up at the shop yesterday 2 were bone stock and the others had some power adders on them. We've done some research and seen a pattern of piston failures in them due to the piston skirts being too short and they are not forged from factory. I'm sure there are more shops in the US, but we only found one in Canada that would rebuild them and give us any kind of warranty. The local shop that builds Subi motors for ultralights and home built aircraft (they know their shite) wouldn't even look at them because of the repeated problems they've come across in their research.

brad

Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:19 pm

great info i was thinking of the enginewiring.com because of the simplicity i have no intentions of turboing i would like to run some zoomie exhuast on both sides of the engine like the vw bazooka exhaust
and i like the fact that you can stop at most auto parts stores and get what ever part that has gone hay wire
i would like to run a SOHC engine i think they look alittle better in the rear you dont have that large timing cove assembly and just my thought

is the piston problem in the twin cam engine only or both single and twin ?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:21 pm

The early EJ-series motors had some issues with short skirt pistons & piston slap - there were also a few head gasket issues & revised gaskets. The later 2.5 SOHC motors seem to have faired better. The '99 vintage 'Phase II' 2.5 SOHC motors were much improved. The US WRX used a turboed 2.0 until the 2005 model year (as I recall) when the turboed 2.5 EJ25 was made available. Canadian & other non-US markets get some toys that we didn't get...

bryan

Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:05 pm

I reversed my intake manifold and modified my throttle body to get rid of the dual throttle cable attachment. I am using the throttle arm off a Solex 28 PCI carb. (The one that used on 36hp VW engine).
Also had the water crossover modified by Outfront so that fitting faces forward toward flywheel on the left side. The water crossover is where most of water flows through system. It can be turned around and faces out towards front on starter side.
Doing this can and has caused overheating on left side of engine.
The water pump is on the right side too so flow really reaches the left side (1 and 3 cylinders).
I am using a Australia made EMS 4860 computer (ECU) and a harness made by Outfront. It made so it changes with alitude changes since sometimes I running at below sea level and at over 10,000FT and I don't want to be adjusting on the trail.
I am using Outfront exhaust system that has the mounting point for a wastegate (blocked off now) with a Flowmaster Hushpower muffler.
Also I had Out front shorten my oil pan( it still leaves 2 baffles in place). Both the Small Car and Pantera cast alloy oil pans do not have any baffles.
There are now several companies producing drysump oil pans now for the 2.0 and 2.5 block.
I have a custom made Ron Davis radiator in the wing above the engine with twin fans.
I am using a 10 degree mount setup I built myself for placing the 091 trans in the chassis. There is no need or really a way to install a rear engine mount on a Subaru. The stock engine mounting locations are closer to flywheel end.
My friends in Australia that use Subaru engines in their buggies use stock computers (ECU) and stock modified harnesses. It does not use a Mass Air Flow Sensor. Nonfeedback system.
The reason I when with an aftermarket ECU and custom harness I did not want to spend the time doing it and my engine is a JDM unit so it came with a stock cut off harness and no ECU.

I grew up with VW's and worked on them for many years for a living.
It was very hard for me to make the decision to step away from using an air cooled engine.
Now that I using the Subaru engine I think it was a wise and more economical decision for me than trying to build an large size VW engine.

Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:16 pm

ok im wondering with a stock 2.5 and ecu in a short manx probably single cam any speculations on fuel Economy MPGs ?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:28 pm

Driving responsible and not getting on it all the time (very hard to do) you should see in the 30s or more.
A flat windshield is not very aerodynamic and becomes the limiting factor at higher speeds for milage

Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:50 pm

Well 30 mpgs sounds my plans for my Manx 2 is to do a nostalgic buggy even tho I'm doing a tube Chassis and suby engine I'm running 205/60/15 on sevens and 275/60/15 on tens. Would also like to do a cobalt blue heavy metal flake. Ide like to do some longer trips and some car shows. Some exploring in the mountain ranges here in wash

Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:23 pm

Well 30 mpgs sounds my plans for my Manx 2 is to do a nostalgic buggy even tho I'm doing a tube Chassis and suby engine I'm running 205/60/15 on sevens and 275/60/15 on tens. Would also like to do a cobalt blue heavy metal flake. Ide like to do some longer trips and some car shows. Some exploring in the mountain ranges here in wash

Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:28 am

ej22's are in the junkyard for cheap cheap cheap, on half off day i get em for $95.

i'm not sure what your local junkyard situation is, but if you have a pull-n-slave maybe you could go check out what is there.

sometimes i see the SVX's in there too.

most ej22's i see in the yard have over 300k on em, good little motors.