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Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:29 pm

Hi,

I'm tearing down a 79 2.0L square port long block, that will likely be a near-stock rebuild. The engine is rumored to have been running upon removal; it sat in a shed for a few years before I got my mitts on it. Interested in opinions on what I've found...

Upon dissection, I've learned that it is not entirely unmolested. All cylinders had been removed, and sealed with orange sealant. The cylinders seemed tight against the pistons (for whatever that is worth).

It had an AMC head on #1,2, and a VW on #3,4. Is it just me, or are the exhaust ports wonky compared to each other?

Here's the bottom of the AMC #1,2 head - any opinion on the condition?

Here's the bottom of theVW #3,4 head - any opinion on the condition?

Just guessing here (read: sarcasm), but this is a bit of overkill on the cylinder sealing, yes?

One the #1 cylinder only, I noticed this odd patch - any idea what caused it?

On the #3 cylinder, both hydraulic lifters had damaged clips - any idea what would cause this? My guess is the pushrods were slopping around due to lifter failure or incorrect adjustment...

Thanks for any thoughts.

Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:10 pm

manikmike wrote: It had an AMC head on #1,2, and a VW on #3,4. Is it just me, or are the exhaust ports wonky compared to each other?
Looks like someone put the gasket in backwards :?
manikmike wrote: Here's the bottom of the AMC #1,2 head - any opinion on the condition?
Greasy.
manikmike wrote: Here's the bottom of theVW #3,4 head - any opinion on the condition?
Not quite as greasy :P
manikmike wrote: Just guessing here (read: sarcasm), but this is a bit of overkill on the cylinder sealing, yes?
Indeed!
manikmike wrote: One the #1 cylinder only, I noticed this odd patch - any idea what caused it?
Bit of water or condensation sitting in the cylinder.
manikmike wrote: On the #3 cylinder, both hydraulic lifters had damaged clips - any idea what would cause this? My guess is the pushrods were slopping around due to lifter failure or incorrect adjustment...
Setting to zero or .006" instead of preloading.

Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:11 pm

One random thought: this block will be a good candidate for the full meal deal drill-out-the-oil-gallery-plugs cleaning, since the PO obviously had a love affair with RTV and there's likely to be small pieces of it lodged in various hidy-holes...the case, the crank, etc etc. :)

Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:18 pm

Thanks guys. Agreed on the case - I'd like to have that and an align bore, assuming I can find a shop with those capabilities. I think I have one about 90miles away, but not much in the way of reviews on their machine work, so I'm a bit leery.

Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:00 pm

manikmike wrote: Thanks guys. Agreed on the case - I'd like to have that and an align bore, assuming I can find a shop with those capabilities. I think I have one about 90miles away, but not much in the way of reviews on their machine work, so I'm a bit leery.

A well known East Coast builder used to send their T4 cases to RIMCO in California. You might want to ask around. Len at HAM might know who on the East Coast can do it. Caution: main bearings are in really short supply so you may want to find what is available there before you start align boring anything. T4 cases are durable and you don't want just any shop trying to align bore it. T4 cases don't get multiple tries like T1 do.

Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:30 am

Thanks Steve. I think RIMCO is mentioned in the BugMe vid (or I picked them up on them from you in another thread), but I figured I'd try to find someone in driving distance (~100miles) first. I surprisingly haven't been able to reach HAM beyond leaving a voice message weeks ago, so stayed focused locally. Hilltop Motors in Jax might be a possibility, but I've not found much in the way of reviews for them.

Given the paucity of mains, I figured tackling the case and crank would be a priority since at least one online shop has some in stock... I realize that it's TypeIs that more likely need an align bore, but I'm assuming the worst (and hoping for the best) on this block since so much is unknown... Is it possible for a lay person to determine if the case even needs an align bore?

Edit: Answered my own Q via archives Performance - Engine/ Trans... Quote: The way to ckeck the linebore is to bolt the case together and measure the bearing bores with a dial bore gauge, or maybe a snap gauge if you don't have a bore gauge... If you can feel a ridge with your nail or the bearing numbers can be seen on the saddles, it needs an aline bore.
So even a non-VW shop in town should be able to check the case if bolted together (unless I get my mitts on a dial bore gauge), if mine fails a visual/ feel test.

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:45 am

One of the things you can check yourself is if the mating surfaces at the bearing saddles have "sagged". The "carbon paper" test looks like this...

Bolt the case together with the six through bolts torqued to 25 ft-lbs. place a 1" square of carbon paper on each side of the bearing saddles. If the paper doesn't pull out when the case is torqued, it passes the test. If it fails the test, you now have a display model of a type IV case.

Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:29 am

manikmike wrote: Thanks Steve. I think RIMCO is mentioned in the BugMe vid (or I picked them up on them from you in another thread), but I figured I'd try to find someone in driving distance (~100miles) first. I surprisingly haven't been able to reach HAM beyond leaving a voice message weeks ago, so stayed focused locally. Hilltop Motors in Jax might be a possibility, but I've not found much in the way of reviews for them.

Given the paucity of mains, I figured tackling the case and crank would be a priority since at least one online shop has some in stock... I realize that it's TypeIs that more likely need an align bore, but I'm assuming the worst (and hoping for the best) on this block since so much is unknown... Is it possible for a lay person to determine if the case even needs an align bore?

Edit: Answered my own Q via archives Performance - Engine/ Trans... Quote: The way to ckeck the linebore is to bolt the case together and measure the bearing bores with a dial bore gauge, or maybe a snap gauge if you don't have a bore gauge... If you can feel a ridge with your nail or the bearing numbers can be seen on the saddles, it needs an aline bore.
So even a non-VW shop in town should be able to check the case if bolted together (unless I get my mitts on a dial bore gauge), if mine fails a visual/ feel test.

revmaster here in Orlando can do it, they do alot of type-1 and some type-4. I had them clean my case out mine was the same way when i took it apart. their shop is huge. http://maps.google.com/maps/place?hl=en&sugexp...1280478050

Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:30 am

Cool tip Funbug, thank you.

Quote: you now have a display model of a type IV case.

Well, I've been needing some new decor for The Man Cave, but I've already got a GEX engine to fill that niche!

Thanks for the link Bugger - I'll look into it.

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:09 am

we called around back in 2008 when we did ours and RIMCO was the only company in the USA at that time who actively did align boring of T4 motors. Lots of T1 but no one on T4. Good luck and post whom it is when you are done. Be sure to have the main bearings in hand before you do an align bore. In fact you may only be able to get standard bearing and if so then don't do an align bore.

Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:23 am

Solid advice, thanks Steve.

Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:57 am

Suggestion...

make sure the guy doing the align bore has the main bearings in hand so that they actually fit correctly and have adequate crush.

Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:05 am

Painters Grinding in Denver did an align bore on a type IV for me about 3 years ago. Turned out great. Last I was in there (about a week ago), I asked about type IV bearings and they said the shortage was OVER and that they are now being made again. Anyone else here this?

Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:28 am

Any decent machine shop can measure the case for you. Or do it yourself with a bore gauge. You can pick up a cheap chinese dial bore gauge from ebay about the same price as getting somebody to do it for you or maybe less. But stay away from those simple T snap indicators they are just not repeatable enough in my admittedly novice experience.

If the case doesn't need a line bore don't do it IMHO. These cases only get 1 line bore in their lifetime best to do it when it actually needs it.

Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:31 am

WhirledTraveller wrote: Any decent machine shop can measure the case for you. Or do it yourself with a bore gauge. You can pick up a cheap chinese dial bore gauge from ebay about the same price as getting somebody to do it for you or maybe less. But stay away from those simple T snap indicators they are just not repeatable enough in my admittedly novice experience.

If the case doesn't need a line bore don't do it IMHO. These cases only get 1 line bore in their lifetime best to do it when it actually needs it.

x2

Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:47 am

There use to be a decent machine shop there in Gainesville. They did some work on the 2.0L heads on my bus. Never asked about align bore... then again I was under the impression that type 4's generally don't need it?

It's been a while since I have lived in gainesville and I can't remember exactly where this place was. It was on the south side of town, want to say main street? If you can read the image of the place in my head then you will know exactly where I am talking about :) I believe it is near RTS? but on a main street to the west?

Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:03 pm

VWGirl, you might be thinking of Partsco Auto on S. Main. I chatted with the guy (don't have my notes in front of me so don't have his name) and he said he'd done lots of VWs in the past, but not for a while. He'd look at the case, but recommended Eastern Auto for some AMC heads. I took that to mean he'd either rather not, or isn't equipped for the heads. They can probably clean the case and measure, but I'm thinking I'd rather go with folk who are still actively working on VWs, in case the case does need some action.

I'm more hopeful I won't need the align bore than initially was, thanks to ya'll.

I was flipping through my notes (circa 1996) when I rebuilt my CJ7 4.2L, and for that I just used the "finger-nail" test on the journals - that engine had been babied tho - I won't find out what I'm up against here for another week or two.

Randy, Whirled, Steve: thanks for the advice. Maybe I ought to pick up the bore gauge. I'll want to go over the GEX when I pull it, and I've an Olds 330ci V8 to rebuilt sometime in the next few years.

Busmania - I've seen some for sale on a couple of the regular vendors sites (as varied as MMA to TypeIV) - altho I don't recall any being over standard size for the case side (which I would need for the align bore) - as well as a few in the Samba classifieds.

Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:53 pm

thats probably them. Like I said, it has been a while. I do miss having eastern imports so close. I generally stock up on parts when I am in fl, or have George ship me parts. Much cheaper than buying the local stuff, and they've always done me right on any parts I got from them.

Good luck! I'm about to tear in to my 2.0 here soon!

Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:32 pm

Hi,

Finally got around to splitting the case, and digging into the fun stuff... Here's a decent shot of the crank and cam, displaying the stereotypical hydraulic lifter wear...

And a gratuitous crank and rod shot...

Now, An Overly Cautious Question perhaps:

The rod lateral (side) clearances ran from 0.010" to 0.013" - while this is far from the end-of-life wear limit of 0.027", it is close to the end of working range limit of 0.016" - does anyone feel this crank should not be used, based on those values?

Thanks, Mike

Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:43 pm

What do the rods measure?, how about the journal width?, where is the play coming from?
Was that side to side with a feeler gauge or rocking on the journals?