TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:23 pm

In keeping with Murzi's "action and drama" I am starting a restoration thread for my latest project.

As some of you know I sold my blue Manx recently.

I did this to allow me to financially afford to take the winter (off-season) off to work on some projects.

One is the "Manx on the Banx" event which is the only east coast Manx Club event. (you can check out the fun here: www.ManxOnTheBanx.com )

I had also intend to work on my yellow Manx to have it ready for the event this coming Oct. In the meantime I received a PM from Rick who owns a emerald green Manx 1. He asked if I was interested in restoring it for him back to the original metal flake. He had seen my blue Manx and thought that I may be interested. I agreed and this is the start of that restoration.

It came in with the normal holes from 40+ years of use.

The back had been cut out to accommodate a carb setup at one time. Holes for the steering column, fuse block, antenna, fuel filler and plenty of snaps. Also 2-3 layers of paint over the original gel coat.

So I started by grinding out the holes.

I ground the edge at an angle to accept the new fiberglass. (blue tape is where the repair will end)

I backed the repair with cardboard covered with wax paper to support the glass and keep it from sticking. (white pole is to keep the cardboard from sagging)

4 layers of mat and resin, removed the cardboard and feathered the edges into the body. (also made up a body and hood stand so I could work at a good level for my back)

2 more layers of mat and resin, excess cut and sanded to shape. I will need to fill it a bit to cover the weave. Then sand to contour and priming. (I also backed the whole repair with 2 layers of mat to solidly bond the repair to the body.

Here is a tip if you cannot reach behind the repair to support it with tape or card board.

This is an area where the support tube is behind the tub wall and cannot be reached. Tape one layer of cloth or mat so it will not move and resin around the edge of the hole. Some of the resin will seep into the center part of the glass which is not a problem. Once it cures it is strong enough to support the following layers of glass. This gives the repair a support structure. If you layered 4-5 pieces of cloth or mat at one time the weight would cause it to sink in which would defeat the purpose of the repair.

I have started sanding the paint off. (primer and in some places 2 coats of paint) It is using up quite a bit of sandpaper to do so but I need to get down to the gel coat so I can be sure the new coatings will adhere properly. It is hard to tell if the polyester primer I am going to use will bond properly to the old paint and I do not want to go through all this trouble and find that I have a problem 6 months down the line.

A couple of notes: Always wear the proper masks or respirator. (fiberglass is forever) Always sand between cured layers of fiberglass if you are using waxed (non laminating) resin. This will give the best bond between layers.

Vince

Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:21 pm

Looking forward to this one. Keep us posted.

Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:25 pm

Update 2/7
Yesterday I reinforced the battery box area, it had cracked for Rick a while back.

I ground off an old repair and and put down 3 layers of mat. Should be good for another 40 years.

I also filled in and glassed the body mounting holes. Rick wanted all the holes filled so he could start fresh.

While I had the body upside down I took the time to reinforce the headlight support area. This area takes a lot of stress from the headlights shaking. It is also an area that may not get a lot of glass when the body is laid up.

Today

One of the previous owners made an access hole above the trans, not sure why. Rick asked me to fix it.

I first ground the edges down to the glass.

With a angle grinder with a 3" Roloc disk on it. (Very handy)

I then screwed some scrap wood covered with wax paper under the opening to act as a shelf to support the loose piece.

I then went underneath the repair and put tape over the joints and holes to keep the resin from dripping through.

I then filled the seams and holes with thickened resin to fill the gaps.

I then used cloth to reinforce the joints from the top.

After the resin cured on the top I removed the wood and tape and flipped the body. I ground out the panel and the surrounding area and put down a layer of mat to bond the repair from the bottom.

While things were curing I sanded off the old paint from the hood. Now I can move on to the body and sand it after all the repairs have cured completely.

Vince

(Murzi how is that for "action and drama")

Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:43 pm

That is really excellent work. Sounds like you got a good price for your Manx, glad to hear it.

Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:52 pm

Ahhhhh...feels like the good old days... :lol: :lol:

Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:59 pm

That is so cool. The next steps of my restore, after I drive it a while, I want to fill in the holes and repaint. What types of cloth and resins do you use? I assume you get them from an automotive paint supply? Your work is outstanding and thanks for the step by step on this. Will be following.

Lee

Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:30 pm

Ditto on Lee's request Vince - what weight cloth are you using? Standard polyester resin?

Some friends used epoxy resin for similar body repairs, even layering a thin top coat on the whole body for final sanding and finishing. In the back of my mind is performing similar work on my GT body, looking like this summer. I'll have to decide pretty soon which resin I'm going to use!

Jeff

Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:00 pm

These type of repairs always open up the 'polyester vs epoxy' resin debate... :lol:

If I recall correctly, Vince is using epoxy resin - What say you, Vince?

Good looking work!

Bryan

Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:56 pm

Couldn't help it, but I started feeling itchy all over just looking at the pictures! Great advice and big thanks for documenting the progress! Looking forward to the continuation of this project!
Aloha!

Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:03 am

Great work as always Vince!!!

I wish you lived closer to me to help me do my repairs. :lol:

Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:09 am

BL3Manx
Thanks for the kind words. I sold my blue Manx on eBay for $12000 to a guy in CO who is very pleased with it.

Murzi
"Just like the good old days." (always itchy (fiberglass) and somewhat light headed (resin fumes) :lol: (I always wear a respirator)

lbass
Thanks for the kind words. I am fortunate to live in an area with a large concentration of boat builders. I get my supplies from Eastern Burlap, they supply all the boat builders in the area. The materials I use are more commercial than what you can usually get from the auto parts store. (but you can use the auto supplies with good results)

To answer yours and Jeff's question I use all polyester products. (primer, resin, gel coat, etc) The reason I do that is because these bodies were all made from polyester back in the day. I can only speak for myself when I say that I have found it to work the best for me. Others use epoxy with good results. For me since I started out glassing and repairing surfboards with polyester it is what I know and am comfortable with. I will say that with surfboards, anyway, it is very difficult to get polyester to stick to an epoxy board.

As for the type of resin I use, it is what is called general purpose. It is green in color. Surfboard resin is usually called Silmar and is slightly blue till it cures and then it is clear. General purpose resin cures translucent with a green to brown cast.

For fillers I use resin mixed with cabosil (fumed silica). It is a white powder that is very light and cures hard but strong. If you use resin alone it cures hard but is very brittle. I mix in enough to make it the consistency of petroleum jelly.

If you are going to lay up layers of cloth/mat at different times (on the same area) you need to use a resin that is "unwaxed" (has no surfacing agent). For resin to cure properly it needs a barrier between it and the air. The wax in the resin you would get from an auto supplier floats to the surface (as it cures) and makes that barrier. To add more cloth/mat you have to sand off that layer to get a good bond. If not your cloth/mat can peel off. Same thing goes when applying primer/paint to a repair, you want to get down past the wax layer.

I get a can of surfacing agent (wax) and add (a few drops) of it to the last coat of a repair so it is easily sanded. Unwaxed resin dries tacky and is very hard to sand but bonds well to additional layers.

Sorry for making this so complicated. Just make sure if you are using the resin from the auto supplier that after it cures you sand it so anything applied over it will adhere.

As for the cloth/mat. I use 4-6 oz cloth mostly and 1 1/2 oz mat. You can use heaver cloth/ mat and use less layers. I have found that it is easier to work with lighter cloth because it conforms better to curves and bends. If I am doing a flat area I may use 20 oz cloth. But since I make surfboards I have a lot of 4-6 oz scrap and I do not have to buy extra cloth. I will say that I have used more mat on this restoration and am really liking how easy it is to use.

Bryan
Thanks for the kind words.

167luckycharm
I am still itchy today and will be for the foreseeable future. Even with long sleeves, full face respirator, and gloves it still gets you. Thanks for the kind words.

66 Shorty
Thanks for the kind words. I am going to have a class at our event "Manx on the Banx" www.ManxOnTheBanx.com in Oct. Come on down.
Vince

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:21 pm

Update 2/11

Yesterday I sanded most of the paint off and filled the holes (second time) with fairing compound.

Today I sanded the fairing compound and more of the paint. I hope to have all the paint off and all the holes filled so I can shoot the primer next week.

Vince

Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:01 pm

Vince:

Very nice work! It's been too cold here of late to do much glass work on my buggy...

Question: I was reading info on gelcoat from another site; an article on the site mentioned that gelcoat shouldn't be painted over primer, as poly resin can lift or bubble paint. What has been your experience with this?

Didn't you paint the red gelcoat over primer on the SR side panel?

regards,

Bryan

Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:32 pm

Bryan
Thanks and good question. The primer I am going to use is a polyester primer and is made to go under gelcoat or any other polyester product. It is the same as I used on the SR panel and it has had no issues. (other than not being worked on for a few years) :wink:

Since you mentioned it, another reason to use a primer is to keep the repairs etc from "printing". That is showing through the gelcoat. (or top coat paint for that matter) If you look at some buggies that have been repaired you can sometimes see the outline of the underlying repair. It is mostly seen on the hood where a filler hole has been repaired or on the fenders where the turn signal has been moved. With the right primer this is not a problem.

Vince

Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:37 pm

Vince:

Thanks for the info; I'm familiar with primer under paint, but the gelcoat is some new ground for me to cover!

Bryan

Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:21 pm

Update 2/15

I finished sanding off all the paint and filler. I then cleaned the body with acetone.

I shot the body with Duratec Gray Base Primer. I am not sure why the call it "gray" since it is really tan.

I then sprayed it with "guide coat" which is a dark or black paint that lets you see where you need to sand.

Here is a picture of the fender after I sanded it a bit. You can see the low spots and where it needs to be sanded more.

More sanding less guide coat present.

Fender area is done and very smooth and fair. You can see some of the underlying gelcoat coming through. This is not a problem since I will give it one more coat before I shoot the green gelcoat.

Here is a trick I learned from a good friend who used to build boats. After doing the primer coat (before first sanding) go around and mark pin holes and other chips etc that you may have missed in the earlier fill step.

Fill them with some body filler and when it cures sand the area. This allows you to sand the area fair and not have to fill later. It also gives you more primer to sand and not worry about burning through as much as you would if you filled after sanding it the first time.

Vince

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:08 pm

Nice work Vince! I'll note that care needs to be taken when using a marking device to circle the pinholes/defects... don't use a wax or china marker to note the defects; it'll contaminate the paint.

b.a.

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:36 pm

Bryan
Thanks! I agree that care should be taken in what type marker is used. I used a regular pencil that sands off with no ill effect. But I should have stated that because you are right if someone used a china marker it would bleed through.

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:49 pm

Looks good Vince.

Talk to us about sandpaper and sanding discs grits. What to use to prep before and after the new glass repairs? Prep for primer? After primer?
Getting it ready for paint?

Never been sure what level of "roughness" would remain smooth after the final paint fully cures and not show sanding scratches later on? OTOH, I guess the substrate needs to be pretty roughened for good stick of new resin, filler, primer, etc. What's the drill?

Jeff

Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:08 am

Vince,

Yes I've been watching this build. You are doing everything I wish I had time to do.
Only difference, is, You are doing quality work !

Bill