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Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:44 pm

presslab wrote: wolfsburg4x4 wrote: But this thread seems to ignore the origin of the design as if it were something new which Burley came up with. Yeah Burley, great idea...

Ahh, the real reason emerges... And I agree with you! Some attribution would be appropriate. To jump on the fact he's copying you I find inappropriate, but some public recognition from Burl for your design would be a good gesture. What say you Burl?

I was ''Part of'' the designing that the two of us were working on at my shop.
One day he says ''The swiveling spring perch is running away ''
The truth of the origin of this part.
I stated in a very early posting about the picture and said ''it is an R&D experimental mock up '' that was not intended for public viewing.
The experiment was focusing on the adjuster on the top and was a revised version of a product that I sold to one of ''my'' customers 3 years ago.
It is my understanding that he stopped doing business some time ago, therefore I felt as I was not '' Copying or Stealing '' anything from anyone.
. Hope this sheds some light .

Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:34 am

Hi Guys

During my Small Car engine conversion (subaru boxer diesel) I had way to much time( 6 mths) (and $) on my hands so I had the shop install disks all the way around and the final prototype of the Small Cars zero lift springs, made for subaru converted vans. I thought you'd be interested in my ride height. I now have about 700 miles on the conversion and can start reporting on its performance and drive characteristics. For this post though, ride height

front left 16 3/8 front right 17
rear left 16 1/2 (edit) rear right 17

87 full westy measured with about 80 additional lbs on the rear. and 215/65/16 rubber
I'm told the springs are in production some time this summer (if not all ready)

I am happy with them and and the HD Blisteins (15,000 miles old) but have seen 60 km of forest roads. My oil pan sits at 8 1/2 inches, turbo at 9 1/2 So I am going to change the springs out for GW 1.5 lift springs and shims. (and a skip plate)

I'm using targis 58 (thank you) information on his lifted van for my initial shim thickness. And this thread has me thinking about the burley control arms.

I have the lift springs. Should I wait a couple weeks and include the control arms, or add the control arms later.

I'll be driving down the west coast in mid september (to pick up grapes) with the intent of meeting some of you and getting you out for a test drive. I'll be posting the invite to the Subaru Turbo Diesel for the rest of us thread.

Thanks

Simon

Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:40 am

Do it all at once so you only need to align it once.

Enjoy your diesel :!:

Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:13 am

Sound advice, agree, all at once, and make sure you tell Burley what springs and tires you have on your van, he's got different versions, there is a specific one for lifted 2WD

Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:42 am

Agreed.. Taking the front end apart is no small task. You'll want to do it all at once.
HOWEVER, do not be surpriosed if you find that you'll want to tweak things a bit more.. later.. meaning taking something apart again.

In the many discussions I have had on this subject, VERY few people got it right (for them) in the first attempt.

Yes.. one alignment.. but I'll be going in for a follow up alignment in the fall. At $75, its cheap insurance against bad wear and crappy handling.

And I STILL have a few more mods in mind...
It never ends. :D

sacbc wrote:
I'll be driving down the west coast in mid september (to pick up grapes) with the intent of meeting some of you and getting you out for a test drive. I'll be posting the invite to the Subaru Turbo Diesel for the rest of us thread.

Thanks

Simon

Let us now when you are in town, (SF Bay Area - Santa Cruz).. We'll get some of the people in the vicinity to meet up and check out that ride of yours.

Should you happen to make your trip earlier.. we're having the GTG on August 25th in San Francisco at Ocean Beach (noted above)

Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:32 am

I have some updates to report:

I have been testing the new version of Syncro.org 2WD springs for about 3 weeks now. I installed them in late June. Let's call them the June 2012 Syncro.org springs since we have now a number of runs of these springs. I believe they are now available for sale at VanCafe

http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_837_533/2wd_springs.html

No affiliation to vanCafe or Syncro.org, just chasing my suspension nirvana here.

As far as I know, what has changed from the previous version of these springs is:

front springs: thicker spring wire, same spring rate
rear springs: slightly stiffer spring rate

The fronts are hot wound, the rears are cold wound and made of chrome silicon.

Ride height
Front driver and passenger side both at 16 1/2 inches
Rear driver at 16 1/2 to 16 3/4 inches
Rear passenger at 17 inches.

I did a quick test. filled up my camping water tank (it was empty when I measured) and the only measurable change was 1/16 of an inch lower on the rear driver side.

I don't have a lot of miles on these springs yet and my baseline is a bit messed up because of subpar previous springs mny van had for a while but so far I can tell I really like these springs combined with Koni shocks and my new Nokian tires.

Just before installing these springs I had tried the Moog 5660s but I felt they were a bit too stiff for my taste. I think the Moogs are great springs for performance highway driving but it felt a bit too rough for a loaded westy with kids in the back and not too desired for me during my limited offroading. It is also true that I had not fully dialed in the Koni rebound adjustment with the Moogs and I had only a few hundred miles on the Moogs when I took them off.

So far I really like the new June 2012 Syncro.org springs, there is a tiny bit more compression in the front when braking compared to the Moogs but it has dramatically improved compared to an older version of Syncro.orgs I used to have. Overall I feel the ride is more gentle and less jarring compared to the Moogs but still feels a bit stiff. I believe that is because I still need to take care of one detail, my front Konis are set at half a turn (180 degrees) from the stiffest position and I think that the ideal setup for these Syncro.org springs is a bit less stiff rebound. I'm planing on doing one full turn or more from stiffest next week and see how that goes. The rear springs feel great, a tiny bit stiff when unloaded but that is just what I want, I'm sure they will feel great when loading up for camping trips and the van will get more leveled front to back.

I still need to do more driving under different load and road conditions to draw a conclusion on drive comfort, cornering and roll but so far I have no complaints in these fields. To be honest, I think I have fallen in love with my van again. Part of this feeling comes from the new Nokian WRC tires I have installed recently, highly recomended, my tire size is 205/70R15. My goal is to have a bit of a balance between responsive highway driving and offroad comfort driving with the whole family in mind, something difficult to accomplish but I'm getting closer.

That is all for now. I will try to report more as I dial in my Konis and put more miles on my westy. I will be at the GTG on August 25th in San Francisco at Ocean Beach, maybe we can do more side-to-side testing and get also your feedback on my van.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:23 am

I've had the newest Schwenk Springs on a 2wd doing testing before production. Mounted with Konis, Powerflex bushings and 16" rims.
This combo provides an excellent ride :!:

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:52 am

insyncro wrote: I've had the newest Schwenk Springs on a 2wd doing testing before production. Mounted with Konis, Powerflex bushings and 16" rims.
This combo provides an excellent ride :!:
Well........ maybe, except for the Barney the dinosaur color of those bushings, they gotta go. I have some customers that tried those , they said they are too soft causing the alignment to continuously change and ruined there new tires at a very fast pace.
The correct solution is to install Burley Motorsports upper control arms for a solid driving feel , squeak free ride , tons of alignment adjustment , plus they hold an alignment superbly . Here is a link to the reviews our customers have written. They all say these arms are a must have http://burleysmotorsports.com/index.php?main_page=reviews&zenid=b6ub6v6h2tv6jdrjljghe8he43

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:11 pm

Forum Rules wrote: DON'T post messages for the sole purpose of attacking a person or company or just to start an argument

burleymotorsports wrote: Well........ maybe, except for the Barney the dinosaur color of those bushings, they gotta go.

<Moderator hat on>
Please refrain from disparaging comments like this. There's plenty of sales to go around, no need to try and steal business. If your customers want to comment on their personal experiences then so be it, but otherwise this is not appropriate.

I have some Powerflex bushings on my van and they are both high quality and perform great.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:22 pm

That's really odd. I have looked in the fender wells of more than one Syncro with Burley upper control arms. A few had smashed body work under the seats. One owner complained that the hiem joints were worn out and rattled. May have been isolated cases but shows they do have faults. Not everyone is happy with them. I have heard the latest generation of arms don't have the body smashing problems but that doesn't solve the problems of earlier versions. Hiem joints are for racing conditions where they are replaced almost every race. For daily use stock bushings still work fine. Problem is after 20 years they do wear out. Some poly bushings do work better than others in any car. Again however there is always a compromise.

Quote: Well........ maybe, except for the Barney the dinosaur color of those bushings, they gotta go. I have some customers that tried those , they said they are too soft causing the alignment to continuously change and ruined there new tires at a very fast pace.
The correct solution is to install Burley Motorsports upper control arms for a solid driving feel , squeak free ride , tons of alignment adjustment , plus they hold an alignment superbly .

Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:38 pm

euromog wrote: That's really odd. I have looked in the fender wells of more than one Syncro with Burley upper control arms. A few had smashed body work under the seats. One owner complained that the hiem joints were worn out and rattled. May have been isolated cases but shows they do have faults. Not everyone is happy with them. I have heard the latest generation of arms don't have the body smashing problems but that doesn't solve the problems of earlier versions. Hiem joints are for racing conditions where they are replaced almost every race. For daily use stock bushings still work fine. Problem is after 20 years they do wear out. Some poly bushings do work better than others in any car. Again however there is always a compromise.

Hi John , Glad to see you here on this thread and thank you for bringing up those points and your input.
You are correct about the early version Syncro arms had hitting issues but only when coupled with a certain shock set up. There are about 10 sets of Syncro arms that were sold 6 years ago that experienced this.

Burley Motorsports is proud to announce we just sold our 200th set of our upper control arms.
We have been building them now for 6years and have had some growing pains but now have a great product line that works well and compliments all shock/spring combos 2wd and Syncro especially the fox shocks.

I would also like to clarify for the group the origin of the Hiem joints , more commonly called ''Rod ends '' .
The origin of them comes from aircraft, we use high quality aircraft grade rod ends on our arms. The average life span when used on our application is 70-100 K miles as reported by our customers as well as our own test results.
The big plus here is that a Hiem costs about $16 ea and anyone can easily replace them if/when the time comes.
Some RACERS do replace them after each race. Mostly trophy trucks, not because they are worn out , but because that is standard racing procedure, replace most every moving part on the car after each race.
I know this first hand as a former 2 time unlimited class 1 desert champion. It used to cost me a fortune to prep the race car after each race
A lot of technology is brought to our table and our lives each day from racing, having this background has enabled me to bring some of that technology to the Vanagon community now that I am retired from racing.

If anyone should have any questions or I can be of service please feel free to email me [email protected] , I will also be at the Get together in Aug. to help , share , and pass forward helpful suspension data, I will also have some cool prototype parts for both the 2wd and Syncro Vanagons.

Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:51 pm

Just a heads up to those who attended the suspension gathering (and any others interested) that after all of the delay and drama we finally have the production 2WD Vanagon coil springs ready to ship.

These are chrome silicone and hence much more costly to make than standard spring steel. It is the same material valve springs are made out of.

Enrique has a set on his van. Here's how they look installed:

Tom Lengyel has been testing them for about 6 months if you want some feedback. Dylan was also provided with an early set and provides his opinion above (thanks, Dylan!).

The springs provide between 16.5" and 17" of ride height on an empty westy. That is within stock spec for the taller springs VW put on the westies. No alignment or upper ball-joint issues. They are modestly stiffer than stock. No harsh bumps or and no harsh concrete joints on the interstate like some of the other springs, but firmer and better handling with better stability (including cross winds) than stock.

These are completely new design. The fronts are beefier than the prior design and the rears are a little stiffer than the last production run.

The springs are designed to give the best ride with at least two passengers and 50lbs of cargo.

Lifetime warranty against breakage or sagging to the original purchaser (after fully seated - takes about 1000 miles to fully seat and settle per bentley).

Steve

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:50 am

My new set are on the way to me and I will be installing them with completely refinished suspension parts, upgraded bushings and a few more upgrades.

More too come.

Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:02 am

Are there any plans for another get together? I currently have a 91 Westy with stock springs, and GW rear leveling pads with KYB shocks. Not to mention that I have the old version of the GW rear tire carrier and tray. I am finding my ride to be a bit to soft for my taste, so I would like to get some input on better springs, possible lift and better shocks. Besides, it is just a good excuse to get a bunch or VW nuts together to talk about our favorite subject, our vans.

Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:29 am

Gpeck96 wrote: Are there any plans for another get together?
You betcha... 8)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=517772

Many of the same cast of characters will return for this one...

New Schwenk springs on one of the vans since the last GTG. (Madspaniard)
One van has gone from Carat to Moog 5660s in front and temp OEM Westy springs w/ Monroe coilover load assist in the rear.. (Steelhead)
One van is on airbag rears. (Presslab)
A few are riding on GW springs. (various)
And I've got older Shwenk springs and have added Monroe max Airs for some load assist in the rear.

And there are a handfull with other combinations.

Many MANY other mods to be seen (and in regular use with thousands of miles in).

A warning though.. Ya gotta get in there and ask questions. It can be a bit overwhelming to try and mingle. And there are many many opinions.

The great thing about these meets is you can see for yourself what the work entails.. and how it goes together..
If people are up for it.. You can get a ride to try things out.

Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:28 am

I will be there with the new syncro springs, too!

Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:44 am

I have a questions about those installing the lift springs
on a front of a 2wd. I can easily get by with not using a
spring compressor on stock springs but having installed
a couple sets of the GoWesty springs realized I need to
invest in a better spring compressor. I don't want to
beat up the powder coating or injure myself with the
cheap ones.
Will the syncro.org ones be easier to install? No compressor
needed?
I plan on purchasing this:

Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:16 pm

That spring compressor you have pictured is the best tool I have used i think. It makes changing syncro springs a walk in the park. They are much more difficult than the 2WD springs. I used to change them with no compressor because the cheapo spring compressors they rent are dangerous and do not work well.

I have not had to use the compressor on the 2WD springs. Last set I changed I did in my driveway. They are much easier than the syncro springs. They might be easier still with the compressor, but you should not need them with syncro.org 2WD springs.

Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:39 pm

syncro.org wrote: I have not had to use the compressor on the 2WD springs. Last set I changed I did in my driveway. They are much easier than the syncro springs. They might be easier still with the compressor, but you should not need them with syncro.org 2WD springs.
Second this.

As a weekend warrior.. hobbyist and hack mechanic, I will add that the cheapo compressors seemed just flat out dangerous. I wasted a few bucks on a set from HF.. and they could hardly compress the spring!

Since then;
I have installed and removed my springs a few times now. I really don't see a need for spring compressors front or rear on a 2WD.. If you measure your radius control arm, then back the nuts it way off (both sides). you should have plenty of room to put the spring in by hand and perhaps a small nudge with the heel of you hand to work it over the cast lip in the lower control arm.

IIRC, my 2010 vintage s.org springs were actually a tad shorter than the 1989 OEM Westy springs.. 1/4" or so. when at rest (no load/no compression)

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:02 pm

The best $600 I have spent on tools thus far.
Top of the line.
I use this tool for all springs, making the job very easy, enjoyable and safe :!:

http://sirtools.com/flier1.html

This tool is on sale at zdmak for $395.