TheSamba.com :: View topic - Thinking about doing a TDI swap (geez another engine swap??)

Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:30 am

Why initially the ALH might have been a poor choice was discussed above. There is another consideration when laying a newer TDI over on it's side. It has to do with the turbo oil return. Mine is in the stock location. My original thinking was that the oil fed in under pressure, so as long as the return was open, the oil would find its way out of the turbo and into the pan.

Then comes the internet. I read what I did won't work and will lead to premature turbo failure. Something about oil coking in the cartridge or something like that after shutdown. Oh well, maybe when the turbo fails as a result of this, I will get a larger one and move the return to the pan. Can't turst everything you read on the internet anyhow.

Karl showed me a picture of an adapter plate for adapting the later TDI block to the early diesel pan. It would be a clean solution, but don't have a source for it. If the demand was there, we could probably get one and have a local machine shop make them from a billet, but it would be expensive. Maybe to have it sent off to have it cast. I don't think the demand is there personally. My oil pan is the only embarrasing part of my conversion. It looks like something I cobbled together in my garage. Come to think of it, that is what I did. If you search a member here Jabba, he grafted the two pans together with his PD conversion. Problem is you only get one shot at it.

Anyhow, performance, mileage, and reliabilty with the ALH is great. I can't convery this, but with the AC cranking, Cruise set on 72 mph, the Saab engine mounts, proper gearing, rebuilt suspension, and the TDI engine, it really is like driving a new modern vehicle. Puts a smile on my face just talking about it. Mark

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:18 pm

I finally got the one at the shop running well and I have to say i am pretty impressed with the ALH setup. Felt AWESOME. Good power pretty much everywhere.

But the downfalls: about 3300 rpm at freeway speed. Speedo wasn't hooked up so I don't know how fast I am actually going but with only the 215/70-15? tires, it wasn't enough. Don't know what trans is in it but it definitely needs the .77 diesel 4th.
I guess this was a Fast Forward kit and ECU. The pump had an injection quantity issue but since the ECU has basically been told to never give fault codes, I had to track the problem down the old fashioned way. In a regular car, it would give a fault and would take a few minutes to deal with it. I will be looking into disabling the EGR and IMMO with nefmoto.com information.
It's noisy. The air intake in this car comes from the drivers side air intake and it needs to come from the passenger side like stock. The diesel engine is noisy too, but can probably be overcome with sound deadening (planning this anyway on mine)

But other than that, I would take it any day over any other conversion out there. Plus the benefit of almost double the gas mileage seals the deal.

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:20 pm

dang, I need a diesel.

maybe I'll just stick to making the DOKA my daily....afterall its already a diesel.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:51 am

some of RSXSR's modified pan conversation in this TDI conversion thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=404447

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:11 am

KermaTDi.com also does some wicked stuff for ALH.

Watching.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:21 am

There's really a lot to like about the ALH vs. the 1Z/AHU engines. I just wish the pans could be more easily modified to suit 50 degree applications.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:29 am

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: There's really a lot to like about the ALH vs. the 1Z/AHU engines. I just wish the pans could be more easily modified to suit 50 degree applications.

Like what for instance? I really haven't seen any huge benefit, as the VNT turbos and other differences can be directly swapped. I'm currently building up my 'new' van with an m-pump AHU @50 degrees, VNT17 turbo, PD intake, liquid intercooling, etc., should put down around 140 hp and 250 ft-lbs when done. :D

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:47 am

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: There's really a lot to like about the ALH vs. the 1Z/AHU engines. I just wish the pans could be more easily modified to suit 50 degree applications.

Eurospec sport does sell a steel 06A oil pan for the ALH which could be very easily welded on to make fit. I plan on using one for my 15* install just because it can take a hit and survive better than an aluminum one.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:54 am

Not trying to steel this thread just figured you talking tdi so I should ask. What's the most torque the 91 automatic transmission on the vanagon can handle? Because I'm interested in the EE20

Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:14 am

I found the pictures I got from Karl. I would say the advantages of the later TDI engines are the relative availablity in the US. For those with Karl's and a few other's diesel injection pump expertise, a combination like Karl is doing is possible and makes sense. For those like myself, no pump experience other than resealing them, availability of off the shelf parts, from the dealer network when on the road has some value to me. Not trying to minmize the work/effort that goes into adapting the electronics and fabricating mounts etc. It is nice that there are some options out there. I'd really like to get my hands on one of these oil pan adapter plates at some point. mark

Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:15 am

westyventures wrote: Zeitgeist 13 wrote: There's really a lot to like about the ALH vs. the 1Z/AHU engines. I just wish the pans could be more easily modified to suit 50 degree applications.

Like what for instance? I really haven't seen any huge benefit, as the VNT turbos and other differences can be directly swapped. I'm currently building up my 'new' van with an m-pump AHU @50 degrees, VNT17 turbo, PD intake, liquid intercooling, etc., should put down around 140 hp and 250 ft-lbs when done. :D

I think you need to send that to me for testing.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:18 am

rsxsr wrote: I found the pictures I got from Karl. I would say the advantages of the later TDI engines are the relative availablity in the US. For those with Karl's and a few other's diesel injection pump expertise, a combination like Karl is doing is possible and makes sense. For those like myself, no pump experience other than resealing them, availability of off the shelf parts, from the dealer network when on the road has some value to me. Not trying to minmize the work/effort that goes into adapting the electronics and fabricating mounts etc. It is nice that there are some options out there. I'd really like to get my hands on one of these oil pan adapter plates at some point. mark

Nice!!!

I assume this is a 1 time part that will never be available for those with less maching skills.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:09 pm

That part is being sold in Germany. The only downside I can see is that it moves the pan down to a point where the existing diesel bell housing bolt holes no longer line up with the pan. One would need to weld relocated bolt bosses to the pan, or forget those two added brace points.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:15 pm

rsxsr wrote: For those with Karl's and a few other's diesel injection pump expertise, a combination like Karl is doing is possible and makes sense. For those like myself, no pump experience other than resealing them, availability of off the shelf parts, from the dealer network when on the road has some value to me. Not trying to minmize the work/effort that goes into adapting the electronics and fabricating mounts etc. It is nice that there are some options out there. I'd really like to get my hands on one of these oil pan adapter plates at some point. mark

That's why I stick with the AHU: it was sold in great numbers around the world in 1Z/AHU/AFN configurations and uses many external parts common to other models. Everything fits and bolts up more easily using factory bits, both mounting and upgrade-wise. Almost all conversions done in Europe are using this engine family. The ALH sold in greater number vs 1Z/AHU is the USA, due to it's late introduction here. It was being sold for four years in Europe before it showed up here.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:15 pm

There is also a two piece 06A oil pan that is aluminum on the top and steel on the bottom. Again, the steel would be welded on easily by anyone to make it work for them.

That spacer looks very nice though! Can the oil deflector windage tray still be used with it?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:34 pm

My cobbled up pan does not use the two lower bellhousing bolts. I think if you include the starter bolts, you end up with 5 fairly stout securing bolts. same as the Golfs and Jettas used. It would have been nice to use all of them, but I think the addition of a torque mount also takes some of the load off of the bellhousing. No cracks so far.

I may try using the two peice pan or doing what Jabba did and graft the two together some day. With the pictures, some pans and blocks for comparison, a copy could probably be made, but if someone really wanted to go that route, probably easier to find someone that imports parts from Germany to pick one up for you. Karl? If you were placing an order to Germany, I'd be interested in the cost to get it to my door. I have an idea of what it would cost to fabricate one and what it would be worth to buy one already completed. Let me know in a PM. thanks mark

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:48 pm

I read the VW paper on the development of the diesel vanagon and it stated that the pan was specifically designed to strengthen the engine and trans mounting in that installation. I would want to use all the bell housing fasteners, especially with a higher torque engine.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:10 am

Andrew A. Libby wrote: I read the VW paper on the development of the diesel vanagon and it stated that the pan was specifically designed to strengthen the engine and trans mounting in that installation. I would want to use all the bell housing fasteners, especially with a higher torque engine.

True it is unlikey VW put them there for no reason. This might be another reason not to use an ALH or newer TDI in a Vanagon. Here is a question though. If the diesel bellhousing is unable to support the higher torque diesel engine without out the 2 pan bolts. What about those using the Kennedy adapter to the 4 point boxer bellhousing? What about those using the Mexico bellhousing in an upright install? Does it attach to the stock oil pan in those installs?

If I believed everything I read on the internet since doing my conversion, I'd probably just leave it parked in the garage. The turbo won't work at 50 degrees, the stock diesel clutch won't last with the increased power, and now the engine is going to fall out. But that is not me. I have been road racing sedans for 25 plus years. I try things, sometimes they work out, sometimes they expose another weak link, which when solved exposes another weak link and so on. It is part of fabrication and design. Our van has proved to be extremely reliable with 20K miles over all types of roads, climates, and landscapes. Maybe I have been lucky, or because I choose not to beat on it, I have not seen any failures related to my modified design.

I am still interested in the pan adapter. It might be possible to address the mounting bosses after the adapter is set in place. I'd have to have it in my hands though.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:41 am

rsxsr wrote:
True it is unlikey VW put them there for no reason. This might be another reason not to use an ALH or newer TDI in a Vanagon. Here is a question though. If the diesel bellhousing is unable to support the higher torque diesel engine without out the 2 pan bolts. What about those using the Kennedy adapter to the 4 point boxer bellhousing? What about those using the Mexico bellhousing in an upright install? Does it attach to the stock oil pan in those installs?

If I believed everything I read on the internet since doing my conversion, I'd probably just leave it parked in the garage. The turbo won't work at 50 degrees, the stock diesel clutch won't last with the increased power, and now the engine is going to fall out.

Mark, the adaptor plates crack and pull studs when subjected to 'real' work, as in serious off-roading in a Syncro. :wink: Same goes for the clutch - the stock diesel clutch barely has enough strength to hold a 1.9 AAZ, a TDI will smoke it. BTDT. The Mexican bell housing is much more supportive than the Kennedy adaptor plate - and if I am not mistaken there are side plates that bolt from the bell to the block similar to the way they did the 5-cyl. in all Audis and the SA T3.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:45 am

Karl, I had not thought about the audi. I recall the 5000 had an aluminum plate that bolted across the bottom of the bellhousing from the engine side and had two 10mm bolts on each side that bolted to the block. Now you have the gears in my head turning. The 5 cylinder block had bosses on each side of the pan mounting surface for the plate. The 4000 just used a stamped sheet metal plate. Time to take a look again. Still I would like to get my hands on an adapter at some point.

Good turnout at Leap this year. Sorry you did not make it down. On Saturday took a trip over to a GTG of vintage travel trailers. Their group is called "Tin Can Tourists" Lots of time and effort has been put into restoring these. I think the Gipsy would have fit right in. mark